MikeSav
Established Member
Do you mind me asking, how much is the rent on a 900 square foot place?
Thanks
setting up a workshop costs
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Echoing others, it's important to know your market and have a customer base. You need to have a contingency of maybe 30 percent more than you think you need, which acts as a float.
In terms of the start of this thread ( all those years ago ) not having full insurance is plain stupid. Imagine renting a workshop and one night your unit goes up in smoke.... oily rags or an extension lead that got too hot ( ive seen that twice ) or arson..... not only have you lost your kit but you'll have the owner of the premises coming for you, plus anyone else affected ( neighbouring buildings )
What about injuries and theft? Always get insurance.
In terms of the start of this thread ( all those years ago ) not having full insurance is plain stupid. Imagine renting a workshop and one night your unit goes up in smoke.... oily rags or an extension lead that got too hot ( ive seen that twice ) or arson..... not only have you lost your kit but you'll have the owner of the premises coming for you, plus anyone else affected ( neighbouring buildings )
What about injuries and theft? Always get insurance.
HOJ
Established Member
@MikeSav The lessons learnt from your previous experience should certainly help you make better decisions now.
Its refreshing to see there are still people taking an interest in making the "craft" a means of living, and I do wish you success.
However, renting space/workshops is a big financial liability, as you will probably have to lock into a contract, so paying for it irrespective of income.
In the time you have, give due consideration to the range of products and therefore the market you are aiming for, then look around and about to see who else is offering the same, or similar, If they are a limited company check them out on the Companies House.GOV website, which will give you an insight into how they well they are doing.
Then ask the question do you need a "shop front" or can you hide away in the back woods, (which is where I am, no one really knows I'm there!) which consequently has a massive reflection in my cost of rent, when I had to move 7 years ago, some commercial places I looked at were up to £12K a year just for the rent, for 1500Sq ft, that takes a lot of earning, my rent now is a 5th of that.
My workshop space is about 900 sq ft, jammed with gear, I also have another area of the same size I use for storage and breaking down material, I also have the benefit of optional & substantial dry and secure storage space in the other barns that are adjacent to my workshop, absolutely essential for me when I start making larger projects (my work is mostly large joinery, doors, windows, stairs etc but does include kitchens and some furniture) that will be done over a long period.
One other point, I know of several "cabinet makers" who have shut up shop and gone back to more basic work such as site carpentry, joinery, fitting furniture and kitchens, which is tragic as they are very talented, and had been awarded guild marks for their work in the past.
Its refreshing to see there are still people taking an interest in making the "craft" a means of living, and I do wish you success.
However, renting space/workshops is a big financial liability, as you will probably have to lock into a contract, so paying for it irrespective of income.
In the time you have, give due consideration to the range of products and therefore the market you are aiming for, then look around and about to see who else is offering the same, or similar, If they are a limited company check them out on the Companies House.GOV website, which will give you an insight into how they well they are doing.
Then ask the question do you need a "shop front" or can you hide away in the back woods, (which is where I am, no one really knows I'm there!) which consequently has a massive reflection in my cost of rent, when I had to move 7 years ago, some commercial places I looked at were up to £12K a year just for the rent, for 1500Sq ft, that takes a lot of earning, my rent now is a 5th of that.
My workshop space is about 900 sq ft, jammed with gear, I also have another area of the same size I use for storage and breaking down material, I also have the benefit of optional & substantial dry and secure storage space in the other barns that are adjacent to my workshop, absolutely essential for me when I start making larger projects (my work is mostly large joinery, doors, windows, stairs etc but does include kitchens and some furniture) that will be done over a long period.
One other point, I know of several "cabinet makers" who have shut up shop and gone back to more basic work such as site carpentry, joinery, fitting furniture and kitchens, which is tragic as they are very talented, and had been awarded guild marks for their work in the past.
MikeSav
Established Member
Thank you so much for your detailed reply, this kind of advice from experience is just what I was looking for.
The units I've looked at locally on industrial estates tend to be around £12k a year for a bit under 1000 square foot, which seems like a huge overhead.
Seems that asking around farms etc then could provide much more reasonable possibilities.
It's sad to hear of talented makers not being able to keep it going, perhaps due to financial reasons.
I'm glad you are going strong!
clogs
just can't decide
sorry not read every answer......
but
renting at silly money, would it not be better to buy a house with the space u need......the rent and rates would be a big way towards a new mortgage repayment.......and it's all ur's........
they are out there.......bit of a premium at the mo but u would always get ur money back if u decide to move again.......
over the last 25 years I've lived almost in the middle of nowhere....nearest neighbours was 1/2mile away.......
Just perfect......plus we always kept the gate shut n dogs loose.....hahaha......
but
renting at silly money, would it not be better to buy a house with the space u need......the rent and rates would be a big way towards a new mortgage repayment.......and it's all ur's........
they are out there.......bit of a premium at the mo but u would always get ur money back if u decide to move again.......
over the last 25 years I've lived almost in the middle of nowhere....nearest neighbours was 1/2mile away.......
Just perfect......plus we always kept the gate shut n dogs loose.....hahaha......
rogxwhit
Established Member
Some sound words in previous posts ...
It's impossible to be prescriptive because much depends on your product / service and existing / intended customer base. As far as premises go there's a great regional variation in costs to rent per sq m per annum, so just do your own research for where you want to be. Lease terms may be negotiable when signing up - period of lease in particular - but some things will be a given, eg cost and payment method and interval, eg monthly in advance.
You'll commonly need to reimburse the landlord for building insurance but this may be in the stated rent. You'll need contents insurance on your own account and this will likely include public liability which'll cover anybody getting injured whilst visiting your premises. Even as joiners / furniture makers, we tend to be classed as sawmills and deemed quite high risk! How you heat the premises may also affect your premium.
If you already have a customer base then you're off the starting blocks already. If you're starting from scratch, then whoa - you'll want a pretty good idea of what your customer base will be - and just as important, how it will find you. So you'll need a business plan - although such things may easily include a hefty dollop of fantasy.
A partnership will halve the overhead cost per man-hour, but partnerships are also risky, even with someone that you think you know well ... the worst probably being that they might suddenly want out, leaving you with all the bills. I've seen that happen, but in my own case I decided to tough it out on my own.
When I started, I had enough work on the books to cover the first year's premises costs, so I took a punt on that continuing. Luckily it worked out.
If premises are visible to the public, that can be a good inherent marketing tool - you will be noticed. That can be invaluable whether your customers are local or might be from far away and just passing through, perhaps on holiday.
What is your product, exactly?
It's impossible to be prescriptive because much depends on your product / service and existing / intended customer base. As far as premises go there's a great regional variation in costs to rent per sq m per annum, so just do your own research for where you want to be. Lease terms may be negotiable when signing up - period of lease in particular - but some things will be a given, eg cost and payment method and interval, eg monthly in advance.
You'll commonly need to reimburse the landlord for building insurance but this may be in the stated rent. You'll need contents insurance on your own account and this will likely include public liability which'll cover anybody getting injured whilst visiting your premises. Even as joiners / furniture makers, we tend to be classed as sawmills and deemed quite high risk! How you heat the premises may also affect your premium.
If you already have a customer base then you're off the starting blocks already. If you're starting from scratch, then whoa - you'll want a pretty good idea of what your customer base will be - and just as important, how it will find you. So you'll need a business plan - although such things may easily include a hefty dollop of fantasy.
A partnership will halve the overhead cost per man-hour, but partnerships are also risky, even with someone that you think you know well ... the worst probably being that they might suddenly want out, leaving you with all the bills. I've seen that happen, but in my own case I decided to tough it out on my own.
When I started, I had enough work on the books to cover the first year's premises costs, so I took a punt on that continuing. Luckily it worked out.
If premises are visible to the public, that can be a good inherent marketing tool - you will be noticed. That can be invaluable whether your customers are local or might be from far away and just passing through, perhaps on holiday.
What is your product, exactly?
MikeSav
Established Member
This is great advice!
I don't have a product yet, I'm still learning how to make fine furniture. I'll finish my course July 2024, and from what I've learned on this thread (and at an established makers open workshop day I just attended), it would be sensible to go and work for someone else for a year or two before trying to set up on my own.
MikeSav
Established Member
Unless I find myself leaving college with customers queueing up to buy my furniture from the end of year exhibitions - but I think I'm drifting into fantasy land !
rogxwhit
Established Member
Absolutely! If you can find a place.
HOJ
Established Member
@MikeSav You don't say how much experience you have, other than doing your course now, as @rogxwhit say's going on to "improve" under someone's tutelage is a sensible approach, even if its in a diverse area but still wood related.
Perhaps you could plan ahead and establish a social media profile, now, rather than just turning up at a later date without a history behind you, would
be a way of potential customers understanding your career progress and achievements, as well as showing your portfolio.
There's me saying all that from someone who does non of it! but I am heading towards retirement, so not interested in running, as I tell people, ICI, (those that remember it) quite happy working in my small but productive world...
Perhaps you could plan ahead and establish a social media profile, now, rather than just turning up at a later date without a history behind you, would
be a way of potential customers understanding your career progress and achievements, as well as showing your portfolio.
There's me saying all that from someone who does non of it! but I am heading towards retirement, so not interested in running, as I tell people, ICI, (those that remember it) quite happy working in my small but productive world...
MikeSav
Established Member
I'm in my mid-forties and only realised I want to work with wood around five years ago, taking several short courses in fine furniture making before investing several years in a now aborted timber milling venture, from which I learnt some of the nature of wood, cutting and seasoning it etc.
My Instagram is:
https://instagram.com/michael_savill?igshid=ZDdkNTZiNTM=I definitely don't have enough knowledge or experience yet, but would like to spend the next 20 odd years doing it in some capacity or another - if at all possible.
johnnyb
Established Member
many years ago out of interest I checked out an old copy of f and c. it had a little bio of the contributors. so I traced what they were doing at that time. some were still going. one went to America and tried to set up but gave up. one was dead. one was untraceable. this was all furniture stuff. the one who was still going( must be near retiring) was Andy Skelton. he did many public sector works.(and magazine articles back then)
I do know about joiners in my area. they are very mixed from huge to tiny. none are one man bands unless there out of a van. the biggest have 15 or 20 guys Inc fitters. some are very old. the one nearest me has new kit about 5 people making windows and doors. they have shrunk slightly I think. the kitchen company(mudd and co) has closed for good. the bigger companies are probably the worst tbh having complaints galore. but obviously they can take full house renovations on( several people I've worked for were taking them to court for shoddy work.) but these things blow over( big companies have bigger walls) I know of one fancy kitchen company still going (he's bankrolled by his successful dads business) a company solely making gates is relatively successful(that's cheap pressure treated softwood stuff not bespoke)
I do know about joiners in my area. they are very mixed from huge to tiny. none are one man bands unless there out of a van. the biggest have 15 or 20 guys Inc fitters. some are very old. the one nearest me has new kit about 5 people making windows and doors. they have shrunk slightly I think. the kitchen company(mudd and co) has closed for good. the bigger companies are probably the worst tbh having complaints galore. but obviously they can take full house renovations on( several people I've worked for were taking them to court for shoddy work.) but these things blow over( big companies have bigger walls) I know of one fancy kitchen company still going (he's bankrolled by his successful dads business) a company solely making gates is relatively successful(that's cheap pressure treated softwood stuff not bespoke)
johnnyb
Established Member
MikeSav
Established Member
Looks like he makes some fine work, and has a speciality in the outdoor seating.
johnnyb
Established Member
it suggests he's nearly 65 so may be retiring. is someone taking over? has he ever had trainees(being a lecturer would suggest maybe. ) I think making public art type commisions is reasonably stable work once you've got a system in place to quote. (I know a guy that gets these sort of gigs he's a chainsaw carver) working for the top 5 per cent of private earners can be extremely fickle(woods out this year glossy plastics in sorry)
somehow the op has to navigate his way to a livelihood. he's in Surrey which must be a huge boost if he can afford a workshop.
somehow the op has to navigate his way to a livelihood. he's in Surrey which must be a huge boost if he can afford a workshop.
Doug71
Established Member
Sounds like my rent is about the same as @HOJ pays, it's quite a nice little unit I'm in but basic, a bit in the middle of nowhere which I actually quite like. I used to be much more prominent in the middle of our village and constantly had people calling in wanting a few screws or a metre of 2"x1" or even just a chat, it wasted loads of time! I do hate being in a rented workshop, it's just the uncertainty, hopefully I'll be okay here until I retire but you never know what might happen. I did used to be on a friends farm, £100 a month and as much space as I needed but it was a bit of a trek and I always felt they were only really doing it as a bit of a favour until I got my life sorted.
I never know how people can make a living from just building fine furniture. My work is very varied, I'm from a traditional joinery background so can do most things. Many of my customers are regulars, they generally have big old houses which always have something that needs my attention.
Word of warning, being by yourself all day in a workshop is a very solitary existence, some people can handle it but some struggle.
rogxwhit
Established Member
His domestic chairs look to me as if they're probably a bit on the heavy side .... ;-)
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johnnyb
Established Member
I struggle with solitude tbh but my gaff has many " characters" kicking about which satisfies my chattiness.
I think fine furniture is something magazine's are fond of " showing how" how many make even a modest living must be tiny. I also reckon "fine furniture" skills are really specific. ie dovetails don't really feature in anything else.
I think fine furniture is something magazine's are fond of " showing how" how many make even a modest living must be tiny. I also reckon "fine furniture" skills are really specific. ie dovetails don't really feature in anything else.
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