school workshops safety

[n0legs]

Is there a culture at schools that dissuades the teacher from going to his superiors and saying he/she is not teaching class due to his/her lack of training/knowledge, or that the lack of a tech does not allow the class to continue safely?

This question comes from someone who's workplace mantra is:-
If you don't know you don't do.
If you don't know you definitely don't tell someone else how to do.
If you don't know tell someone, then learn how to do.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular case every fine is another nail in the coffin for hand skills/craft training within schools, and that's just a dreadful shame.

Forget the fine, any parent reading that is going to be having several thoughts about yanking their kid right out of any class using power tools like that. Who would put their kid in a class where they could lose fingers because the school doesn't have enough trained people on staff?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

There are a few issues here. Firstly, technicians are very poorly paid and the job description is bewilderingly wide ranging. They do have to have H and S training, but to be honest, I doubt many technicians in schools are particularly knowledgeable or skilled. That might seem like a damning statement, and there are always excellent examples of technicians in schools that do much more than their pay grade and job description. But as a generalisation, I doubt there are a majority who know enough to be able to truly assess H and S situations to the degree that these reports seem to expect. Indeed, how many technicians are going to be that well trained and work in a school for perhaps £12-15 000 PA.

Then there are few teachers with subject specialist knowledge, Re. What I said earlier, qualified teacher status does not mean expert in the field.

Who is to know how a sander is to be set up between the staff in a D and T Dept?

Mike.

 

[timber]

Seven is far too young to be using any wood working machine. If it is allowed it ,in my opinion ,a one to one instructor.
Timber
Sorry did not read it right, just shows accidents happen
Timber

 

[lurker]

This it true what Woodbrains says, due to never ending cutbacks Local Authorities have got rid of the competent support staff who can sort this. nothing new I'm afraid. This is the root cause of many daft "pronouncements" that get H&S a bad name.

My lads are now in their mid 30s but when they went to (what i would call) secondary school the school was plannning to shut down a great deal of their well kitted out workshops, because they had been told the equipment was unsafe and they could not afford to replace it.
I helped the head of D&T ( I am a Chartered H&S professional ) do a full assessment of all equipment. With adjustments, decent risk assessment and a bit of a spend on upgrading the LEV everything was fixed. The workshop are still in use with the same kit so far as I know.
Supposedly we saved the LA nearly £150k, the only thanks I got from the LA was they challenged my credentials
they soon backed down when I pulled out my papers 8) .
At that time, there was a organisation called CLEAPS (or similar) there was good advice there for schools. Does it still exist Mike?

 

[heimlaga]

I think most of the fault is with the parents and the rest is with those who don't employ enough competent technicians.

I started using woodworking hand tools at age 4 or 5 and I felled my first tree on my own (6 or 7 cm in diametre) at the same age. I started driving a tractor (Massey-Ferguson 35X with neither cab nor power steering) at age 6 and I started using an axe at roundabout age 12.
This means that I from the very beginning learned to take watch out and work safely.
In school we were allowed to use a drill press at age 10 and a lathe at age 11 and a band saw at age 12. Planer and thicknesser and table saw at age 13. Mostly (with a few regretable exceptions) under supervision by a competent and safety concious teacher.

Theese days children are brought up in an artifical cocoon of ready made stuff and spend their time pushing buttons and wathing a screen. No wonder they grow into careless youngsters and loose fingers when they finally try to make something.

 

[SammyQ]

Lurker, CLEAPS is alive and healthy in most well-run schools.

As a practicing teacher of 36 years experience, may I please ask how many of the previous correspondents are also in the profession? No, I am not getting tetchy because my craft is being wee'd on from on high; I am merely wondering how many people realise that the Education system is in a similar crisis to that pertaining in the Health service. The causes and day-to-day pressures are complex and it is NOT a simple case of 'too little resources' i.e. money, it is also subtler things like the apparent nationwide perception that "If you can do, do, if you can't do, teach". This has in part led to teacher training being viewed by recent graduates as a path of last resort. So, headteachers have (sometimes) got to work with what they've got....history teachers taking H.E. etc. Look at Physics graduates - in particular - being given the equivelant of an extra, tax-free, year's salary as an incentive to teach in London...With all due respect to Lurker, some of the H&S reps I have met have never actively tried teaching, never spent any time actively in an industry compatible to the school environment they are pronouncing judgement on (I've got three and a half years experience as a Lab Tech in a high-pressure analysis centre) and are more concerned with either sticking rigidly to the letter of their training and avoiding litigation than they are applying commonsense as Lurker did.

As an advocate of the Red Book (H&S 'bible' when I graduated) and its antecedents and as someone who regularly uses 1200 degree temperatures as far down as Year 7... I can see a multiplicity of problems and poor practice in the thumbnail sketch of the incident. To PROPERLY, FAIRLY, get to the bottom of Who, Why, What, in this incident needs much more analysis and context than this 'filler' from a reporter.

Sam - who has just finished the Thermite reaction with Year 9, the screaming Jelly Baby with Year 8 and will be conducting multiple dissections with year 13. And that's just the last 24 hours.

 

[SammyQ]

Sorry, double post.

 

[lurker]

Sam

I think you have got me a bit wrong; we are singing the same song really.
I work in a high risk industry, I am the head of H&S, BUT I insist H&S is not my responsibility.
I provide pragmatic expert help were required.

So.........a teacher or technician ought to be able to call upon an expert within the LA when they realise they need help. Go back 20 years and this help was available but LAs saw it as an overhead and down graded it. Hence the reason LAs are constantly in court for H&S offences.

My son is a specialist teacher in a school for severly handicapped kids so I have a good idea of how bad the education system is. I have helped him (& his head) challenge really stupid (and time consuming) H&S "pronouncements" made by someone who has done a 10 day H&S course and has been put in charge of the LA H&S section; I guess because they were cheap rather than good. Like teachers most of the good LA H&S folks have given up and gone.

 

[SammyQ]

Duh, sorry, my bad Lurker; point taken. You are exactly right about the the L.A.'s action and the 10-day training 'inspectorate'.

Sam

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular case every fine is another nail in the coffin for hand skills/craft training within schools, and that's just a dreadful shame.

Strange isn't it, that no number of broken limbs is enough to stop rugby or football though ?

 

[Aden30mm]

Just to highlight what may be an issue. The risk assessment is not a final destination, its only part of the process that needs to be followed to ensure a safe system of work.

 

[DTR]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular case every fine is another nail in the coffin for hand skills/craft training within schools, and that's just a dreadful shame.

Strange isn't it, that no number of broken limbs is enough to stop rugby or football though ?

"Doctors urge schools to ban tackling in rugby":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238

 

[Phil Pascoe]

What about the minds screwed up by religious education? :lol: :lol:

 

[mugginsNO1]

The teacher should be fined and out of a job. He's supposed to be competent, he wouldn't be employed if all the boxes weren't ticked. It is no one's fault but his. (I wonder what on earth they were doing with a belt sander in a school workshop anyway.)

Having taught Joinery at a school and furniture making and design at a college I can sympathise with the Teacher concerned. Teaching any practical subject is very difficult. You need to have eyes everywhere at the same time. It is true that it's good practice to give initial training to the whole class and brief everyone on how to use tools and machinery safely. Using peers to give instruction is also a very useful teaching tool, with the caveat that this is supervised by the Teacher or a Technician. With no Technician in attendance, the Teacher may not even have been aware that this instruction from another pupil was going on.

In a college environment, most students are there to learn and pay close attention......most of the time. A school is quite different. An 11 year old can be very casual towards their own safety and the safety of those around them at the best of times. The youngest students I taught were 13 and they were (by en large) lazy and didn't even like wearing suitable PPE without confrontation. I was lucky in that there was always a Technician or another Teacher in the workshop, which made managing the situation easier (but not easy).

I used to wonder if it was a good idea letting younger students used machinery at all, maybe more emphasis could and should be put on training hand skills.

It's so easy to blame the Teacher and question his/her competence. As a matter of course, all Teachers are subject to a yearly evaluation that covers everything from practical ability and knowledge to admin. Any weak areas are highlighted and strong ones acknowledged. I'm sure if the Teacher in question had not been up to the job, he/she would not have been employed in the first place.