Saw stop ( USA )

[Spectric]

Video camera with AI analysis

That would be ok providing you have not upset your AI and it is seeking revenge !

 

[Bungster]

I wonder where, air bags, abs, seat belts, traction control and the plethora of safety devices built into cars nowadays fits into the discussion. Surely they're not required when an experienced and well trained driver is controlling a ton and a half of steel at 100 kph in heavy rain with the kids in the back seat. Just a thought.

 

[akirk]

I wonder where, air bags, abs, seat belts, traction control and the plethora of safety devices built into cars nowadays fits into the discussion. Surely they're not required when an experienced and well trained driver is controlling a ton and a half of steel at 100 kph in heavy rain with the kids in the back seat. Just a thought.

correct - they are not required in those situations - however, cars are more complex as you are in a context where there are many other people who may not be as competent... would you give up your protection and drive alongside a drunk driver?

whereas a table saw is (one hopes!) a fixed position device with known characteristics - so the blade is always in the same geographical space / wood will always risk pinching / opening up / if wood is fired off the table it is generally in a front / back direction etc. - known characteristics... so how do most issues happen: carelessness / lack of attention / tiredness / pushing the limits of the machine / etc.

that is perhaps a little more like a driver who necks a bottle of wine and then drives at 100mph around a corner - there may be airbags, they may not be sufficient!

Jeremy Clarkson was also famous for saying that cars should have a metal spike in the steering wheel - you would drive more cautiously - so there is an interesting discussion around perceptions of safety and how that affects risk... would having saw stop on a table saw increase the risk you are prepared to take (what if the saw stop then failed to work?!) would having a table with an open 20" blade making a lot of noise make you more cautious?!

 

[mudman]

Jeremy Clarkson was also famous for saying that cars should have a metal spike in the steering wheel - you would drive more cautiously - so there is an interesting discussion around perceptions of safety and how that affects risk... would having saw stop on a table saw increase the risk you are prepared to take (what if the saw stop then failed to work?!) would having a table with an open 20" blade making a lot of noise make you more cautious?!

Not Jezzer with that one. It was a chap called Gordon Tullock

 

[mudman]

What I can't understand is why there are people that seem to think that a saw stop should not be fitted. Their whole reasoning seems to be that people should be well-trained to a professional standard, be fully aware of what they are doing, not take risks, use guards and, to keep hands well away from the spinny sharp thing by using appropriate remote manipulators. All that is all well and good and yes, that would be ideal and the theory is then that there should be no possibility of an accident. But, safety devices such as the saw stop are there for the unforeseen events that might happen. They shouldn't replace good practice or be used as an excuse to remove guards. So what is so wrong with having it on a machine? If someone wants it that is up to them and if it prevents an accident from some 1 in a million chance, then surely it is a good thing. These arguments being put forward for not having it installed are quite beyond belief. The attempts to propose all sorts of wild reasoning for their position is showing a supreme level of cognitive bias. The argument that there is a problem with it because it can't be fitted to spindle moulders or routers is the specious argument of all specious arguments.
And remember, as Terry Pratchett said 'One in a million chances happen nine times out of ten'.

 

[Jacob]

What I can't understand is why there are people that seem to think that a saw stop should not be fitted.

Have you had one fitted yourself? If not why not?

"Good practice" is extremely simple and can be taught in seconds i.e. "Keep your hands well away from dangerous cutters in action". That is all you need to know - hardly "well-trained to a professional standard".
It's simple stuff like "keep your hand away from a fire" which even little kids can understand.
Could add dimensions if in doubt, say 6 to 10 inches away, depending on what you are doing
Next step is how to achieve this, push sticks, power feeds, sliding tables with clamps etc
Saw stop not a good idea
1 It can't be fitted to existing machines, of which there are millions
2 They haven't been developed for spindles, planers etc
3 Being mechanical they are not fail safe
4 Expensive
5 Safe practice very easy to achieve from the start anyway.

 

[Spectric]

What I can't understand is why there are people that seem to think that a saw stop should not be fitted. Their whole reasoning seems to be that people should be well-trained to a professional standard, be fully aware of what they are doing, not take risks, use guards and, to keep hands well away from the spinny sharp thing by using appropriate remote manipulators. All that is all well and good and yes, that would be ideal and the theory is then that there should be no possibility of an accident. But, safety devices such as the saw stop are there for the unforeseen events that might happen.

If the saw stop was fitted on all saws then maybe not such a problem but if you have the saw stop then what effect on your own attitude to safety, knowing the saw cannot cut fingers off could make you take risk you would otherwise not take and then one day in a colleagues workshop helping out using a standard saw you forget not all saws have saw stop and before you know it you can now only count to nine !!

The best saw stop would be one that when activated to save your digits also wrecks the blade which would cause expense and inconvenience so making you avoid activating saw stop and use push sticks, so then why not just work safetly in the first place and not look for excuses not to.

 

[akirk]

Not Jezzer with that one. It was a chap called Gordon Tullock

Clarkson must have been quoting him then as he definitely used to talk about it quite a bit!

 

[mudman]

Have you had one fitted yourself? If not why not?

"Good practice" is extremely simple and can be taught in seconds i.e. "Keep your hands well away from dangerous cutters in action". That is all you need to know - hardly "well-trained to a professional standard".
It's simple stuff like "keep your hand away from a fire" which even little kids can understand.
Could add dimensions if in doubt, say 6 to 10 inches away, depending on what you are doing
Next step is how to achieve this, push sticks, power feeds, sliding tables with clamps etc
Saw stop not a good idea
1 It can't be fitted to existing machines, of which there are millions
2 They haven't been developed for spindles, planers etc
3 Being mechanical they are not fail safe
4 Expensive
5 Safe practice very easy to achieve from the start.

No I haven't. I don't own a table saw, I don't have the space but if I did, then I would be keen to have one with a saw stop.
And there you go with the cognitive bias again although you are displaying a fair degree of confirmation bias as well. Your arguments are specious in the extreme but as is usual with you, no reasonable argument will be countenanced and you will continue to take you own position and put forward outlandish arguments to support it. So what's the point? I still think your argument against them that it hasn't been developed for other machines is amazing. That you actually think this is a reason for not installing it is quite frankly gobsmacking.

 

[mudman]

If the saw stop was fitted on all saws then maybe not such a problem but if you have the saw stop then what effect on your own attitude to safety, knowing the saw cannot cut fingers off could make you take risk you would otherwise not take and then one day in a colleagues workshop helping out using a standard saw you forget not all saws have saw stop and before you know it you can now only count to nine !!

The best saw stop would be one that when activated to save your digits also wrecks the blade which would cause expense and inconvenience so making you avoid activating saw stop and use push sticks, so then why not just work safetly in the first place and not look for excuses not to.

No, you would continue to employ all the good practices that you have been employing in your own workshop. Another very strange reason. Others might not have it so you shouldn't either. Some vintage cars don't have seatbelts, does that mean we shouldn't have mandated them in more modern cars in case people forget when they get in a vintage car?

I believe that originally the saw stop activating did destroy things and required a large outlay to reinstate. Don't know about nowadays.

I can appreciate the reasoning that this safety device may encourage bad practice in a few, but why should that be a reason to discourage the majority from buying such a machine?

 

[Bungster]

Sawstop is simply an invention that adds another layer of protection in the event of a mistake, accident, 'act of God' or any of the many circumstances where people lose body parts to saws. I see it as nothing more or nothing less. We don't live in a perfect world unfortunately and that is probably why my brother in law, with 52 years as both a chippie and Trade School teacher can't scratch his buttocks with the index finger of his right hand.

 

[Max Power]

What raving nonsense. Somebody needs to tell them about push sticks.
Or the trade will gang together to sell us masses of expensive gadgetry

Why would you be against something that has the potential to prevent thousands of debilitating injuries?
And please don’t rant about push sticks in your answer, we all know the benefits of them and it’s common sense to use them, but that seemingly doesn’t prevent hundreds of accidents every year.
No one is forcing you to buy anything, so carry on using your existing equipment, but don’t limit other peoples choices.

 

[Max Power]

I hope you can respect another's wish to have a great safety device running in the background.

Not a hope in hell, he’s so delusional as to think that the only opinion in the world that deserves consideration is his own. That’s how it has been for years so don’t expect any change now

 

[Jacob]

Why would you be against something that has the potential to prevent thousands of debilitating injuries?

Because it wouldn't prevent thousands of debilitating injuries unless there were millions of saw stops installed, and even then the remainder would have to rely on normal safe practices on saws and other machines

And please don’t rant about push sticks in your answer, we all know the benefits of them and it’s common sense to use them, but that seemingly doesn’t prevent hundreds of accidents every year.

I think it's very likely that it does prevent hundreds of accidents, but we'll never know until someone does a comparative study of some sort.

 

[Jacob]

Not a hope in hell, he’s so delusional as to think that the only opinion in the world that deserves consideration is his own. That’s how it has been for years so don’t expect any change now

You mean I shouldn't have any opinions that you don't share? Actually a lot of people seem to think like that! I guess it makes them nervous. It just makes me laugh.

 

[mudman]

Because it wouldn't prevent thousands of debilitating injuries unless there were millions of saw stops installed, and even then the remainder would have to rely on normal safe practices on saws and other machines

I think it's very likely that it does prevent hundreds of accidents, but we'll never know until someone does a comparative study of some sort.

Your circular arguments are mind boggling. So because other people haven't got something, then no one should? You make less and less sense as you frantically dredge up some other confirming opinion as you have no real valid arguments.

 

[Jacob]

Your circular arguments are mind boggling. So because other people haven't got something, then no one should? You make less and less sense as you frantically dredge up some other confirming opinion as you have no real valid arguments.

Have you got a saw stop yourself?

 

[mudman]

You mean I shouldn't have any opinions that you don't share? Actually a lot of people seem to think like that! I guess it makes them nervous. It just makes me laugh.

I don't think anyone has ever said you shouldn't have an opinion. what people have said is that you really need to stop constantly banging whatever drum you have nailed your colours to. Just constant repetition and facile opinions that are often wrong but you can never back down or admit there is the smallest chance you might be wrong.

 

[mudman]

Have you got a saw stop yourself?

I've already said I haven't.

 

[Bruce Mack]

The Power Tool Institute in the USA, an agglomerate of tool makers including Festool, owned by TTS Tooltechnic which is also the parent company of Sawstop, says this about the Consumer Product Safety Commission's proposed active injury mitigation on all table saws: https://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp
My wheels are spinning and I have neither the credentials nor cognitive ability to assess their conclusions though some of you may have both. I am grateful to the forum members for their thoughtful, occasionally heated, comments. Thanks to you, I now have two 24" push sticks and more awareness of my fallibility. As Rodney King said, "Can't we all get along?"