Sash windows

[rich1911]

I'm in need of new/refurbished sash windows!

Initially a pair of large triple sashes, 2250x1700mm.

I also want to go double glazed.

Quotes are comming in for refurb or replacement at £9500 for the two windows.

I have a total of 4 triples and 4 large bays that will all need doing eventually, so total cost is around £50k.

With time and space on my side, I am reseaching the DIY route.

This blog shows it can be done, even with minmal equipment. Initially I had assumed I'd need a decent combi machine as a minium, but this guy manages with some cunning jigs and about 500 quids worth of machines!

(can't post a link - but google diy sliding sash blog should get you close)

I'd be interested in hearing view an opinions on this, as well as any other useful links etc.

I have the classic joinery books and have a good understanding (now) of the layout and construction of a sash. I can also remove one of the old windows and take it to bits!

Cheers!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A couple more posts and you'll be able to post links, send PMs etc.

 

[rich1911]

A couple more posts and you'll be able to post links, send PMs etc.

hope so! I can put a photo of said windows on then!

 

[thetyreman]

I'd be concerned about how long it would take me to make one, let alone loads of them, you are brave if you take this on as a DIY project.

 

[RobinBHM]

It can be done, not sure about for £500 of tools though.

Your easiest solution is to do a thread on here and try and glean the information. The secret to making it straightforward is to get a joiner give you a set of drawings / breakdowns using modern materials like draughtseals.

Alternatively learn how to measure and install, then buy the windows direct from a nanufacturer and install yourself.

 

[Trevanion]

That's an ambitious project but if you reckon you can do it, all the power to you!

Look at the prices you were quoted they don't seem totally unfair for the actual size and awkwardness of the work. I've made and fitted full gable end oak frames with over 300kg of glass and I still shudder about fitting large sash windows, mostly due to the fact of having one drop 2 stories when I was fitting one during my apprenticeship. You wouldn't believe the noise when it hit the ground, and the noise of the boss afterwards!

Jacob here is pretty clued up on box sash so it might be worth picking his brain on it, I suspect he'll be along shortly.

 

[rich1911]

That's an ambitious project but if you reckon you can do it, all the power to you!

Look at the prices you were quoted they don't seem totally unfair for the actual size and awkwardness of the work. I've made and fitted full gable end oak frames with over 300kg of glass and I still shudder about fitting large sash windows, mostly due to the fact of having one drop 2 stories when I was fitting one during my apprenticeship. You wouldn't believe the noise when it hit the ground, and the noise of the boss afterwards!

Jacob here is pretty clued up on box sash so it might be worth picking his brain on it, I suspect he'll be along shortly.

Yep, I have no issues with the quotes. Everyone I asked quoted £9500 for 2 windows, to within £200 so that's defo the price.

Roughly I would guess £2000 materials, 70 hours @ £35ph, £1000 to fit. Margin 50%, +VAT = £9810

As I'm not working, I don't really want to spend £50k on someone else to do something I could be doing, even if it takes me 3 times longer!

I have collated a load of drawings showing sections etc, with various draft proofing.

The guy in the blog made his with a bench planer, table for his router, a mortiser and a cheap table saw. I'm not saying that's a good way to go, but it does show what can be done. I was thinking of getting a decent combi machine, even spending £5k on tooling will still be cheaper than getting 2 windows made. Once I have made 12 sashes, I reckon I will be well on the way to doing the rest!

I'd like to put some drawings on here and pick a few brains about things like air gaps and drain holes in the sashes, best joints to use in the sashes and where the pulley stile meets the cill etc.

Many people make these windows, some because they can, some because its a trade, it's not impossible. It will just take time, which I have plenty of!

 

[deema]

I’m going back a few years (15) when I lived in Yorkshire, Uriah Woodhead (Bradford) used to machine and sell all the sections you would require. They operated a six cutter and other machines and converted stuff into more ‘profitable’ sections for the local joiners. It was always in stock. You just had to make the joints which cut down the effort tremendously and made it far more profitable. I havent looked for anyone since who provides the same service as I now machine myself anything I want.

 

[rich1911]

I’m going back a few years (15) when I lived in Yorkshire, Uriah Woodhead (Bradford) used to machine and sell all the sections you would require. They operated a six cutter and other machines and converted stuff into more ‘profitable’ sections for the local joiners. It was always in stock. You just had to make the joints which cut down the effort tremendously and made it far more profitable. I havent looked for anyone since who provides the same service as I now machine myself anything I want.

I did wonder if I could buy ready make profiles in Accoya, but not found any yet. Mainly cladding.

Not sure if any local joiners would be interested it making it for me!

 

[RobinBHM]

If you were local, I would do them -we make box sashes etc

you might find somebody local to you though.

before you do though please please please come on here and ask how to give a joiner a cutting list.....

I get builders / site carpenters giving me muddled lists all the time. A list you want for box sashes would get awfully confusing

have a look at reddiseals and mighton products for staff bead, parting bead etc etc.

 

[rich1911]

If you were local, I would do them -we make box sashes etc

you might find somebody local to you though.

before you do though please please please come on here and ask how to give a joiner a cutting list.....

I get builders / site carpenters giving me muddled lists all the time. A list you want for box sashes would get awfully confusing

have a look at reddiseals and mighton products for staff bead, parting bead etc etc.

Hi Robin, Thanks for the offer!

I've spent ages looking at what's on offer on the Mighton site. Will check Reddiseals too. Cheers!

 

[thomashenry]

What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.

This summer I replaced/refurbished a sash window. The two sashes were ok, so I stripped them right back to bare wood, took them apart and then reglued and reglazed them.

The sashbox was rotten in the way I described, so I took it apart, kept the good timber and made a new box using that salvaged timber and new timber for the sill, outer faces, and stiles. Making a sash box is really not that hard and requires no difficuly joinery. I did mine entirely with standard hand tools.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

It was a fairly lengthy process with lots of stages, but none of it was difficult. Of course, if you need to make new sashes, then there is a significant extra task involved. I will be attempting that this summer with another of my windows.

Total cost for the job was no more than £120 including glazing, timber and paint.

 

[rich1911]

What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.

This summer I replaced/refurbished a sash window. The two sashes were ok, so I stripped them right back to bare wood, took them apart and then reglued and reglazed them.

The sashbox was rotten in the way I described, so I took it apart, kept the good timber and made a new box using that salvaged timber and new timber for the sill, outer faces, and stiles. Making a sash box is really not that hard and requires no difficuly joinery. I did mine entirely with standard hand tools.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

It was a fairly lengthy process with lots of stages, but none of it was difficult. Of course, if you need to make new sashes, then there is a significant extra task involved. I will be attempting that this summer with another of my windows.

Total cost for the job was no more than £120 including glazing, timber and paint.

That certainly is an option. The cills are shot. The sash boxes have all been repaired in the past, so there are scarf joints at the bottom 6 inches. These are all shot.

The sashes are mostly ok. Two have rot thats gone through the bottom rails and one stile. I want to fit double glazing so they all have to come out and either be re-machined or replaced.

The sash weights will all need replacing.

I want to fit draught strips.

So maybe I could refurb. But to be honest, I'd like to replace with Accoya and forget about them for a few years!

One quote I had was for refurb, but it was exactly (like within £100) of replacement, which is odd. But £9500 to refurb 2 windows maybe gives an idea of how much work there is...

Once I get the windows out and apart I can assess the actual state of the word and if it's fine, I will reuse it.

My windows are certainly well beyond a work over with a burr and a load of filler!

 

[deema]

There is usually far more work involved in refurbishing than remaking. If it were me, I’d just bite the bucket are remake. When they are ready you can remove the old and fit the new in a few hours. If your looking at refurbishment you are likely to be without the window for sometime.
However, if you repair you won’t need a FENSA certificate / checked by building control and all of the other highly useful regulation on window design that is mandatory these days. Before I get shot down for decrying the wonderful regulatory environment I submit in my defence as evidence that anyone and I mean anyone can pay a relatively small fee and become FENSA registered and fit windows and if they are lucky get checked once a millennium without any training or experience. Equally I’ve yet to find a definidition if what refurbishment means. Taken to an extreme it seems as long as you use any part of the old window it ticks the box (down to a single srew!)

 

[MikeG.]

Mumford and Wood make first rate sash windows in Essex, using hi tech machinery and all the latest seals etc..........and the bonus is that they have technical drawings on their website. Most of the drawings you have, I'd bet, have a detail for single glazing only, but M&W have them for double glazing. Lots of timber specialists stock the various mouldings and beads etc, so you won't need to produce your own.

'twere it me, I would first have a go at a small window round the back of the building somewhere, and you'll soon know not only what is involved, but how feasible it is to scale the process up with your kit and skills. I would have said that the thing which will distinguish the Mumford and Woods of this world from you is the quality of the finish. A factory applied microporous finish is a million miles away from the undercoat and gloss combination which wrecked so many sashes at the end of the last century. If you have room for a temporary spray booth I would certainly suggest looking into that. Otherwise, the next best thing is brushed on Bedec MultiSurface Paint.

 

[rich1911]

Mumford and Wood make first rate sash windows in Essex, using hi tech machinery and all the latest seals etc..........and the bonus is that they have technical drawings on their website. Most of the drawings you have, I'd bet, have a detail for single glazing only, but M&W have them for double glazing. Lots of timber specialists stock the various mouldings and beads etc, so you won't need to produce your own.

'twere it me, I would first have a go at a small window round the back of the building somewhere, and you'll soon know not only what is involved, but how feasible it is to scale the process up with your kit and skills. I would have said that the thing which will distinguish the Mumford and Woods of this world from you is the quality of the finish. A factory applied microporous finish is a million miles away from the undercoat and gloss combination which wrecked so many sashes at the end of the last century. If you have room for a temporary spray booth I would certainly suggest looking into that. Otherwise, the next best thing is brushed on Bedec MultiSurface Paint.

Hi Mike,

Yes I have all the files from Mumford's site and I am also waiting for a quote from them!

You are right, they do show a DGU in the frames. They also show a bit of an odd meeting rail arrangement where there the profile of the meeting rails is square. There's no wedge shaped side to lock the top and bottom together. Instead there is some sort of raised seal strip. There is actually a gap between the top and bottom sash meeting rails, filled by the seal strips. It would be interesting to see what that actually looks like. The drawings are only sections not assembly drawings of course so there are no details of joints etc.

They also show that the sashes have glazing beads on the inside, not the outside. There's also a drain in the top sash meeting rail but not one in the bottom sash bottom rail.

There are three seals on the top rail to head and bottom rail to cill, so draught proofing must be good.

Oddly there are seals on both sides of the upper sash set into the beads but only on one side of the lower sash set into the outer lining. Maybe that's just missing off the drawing but I'd expect seals on both sides of the sash stiles. one on the outer lining, two on the prting bead and one on the inner lining.

They do fit a seal between the sash stiles and the pulley style though.



I do have room to set up a spray booth for some Teknos paint. Our Orangery joinery was all sprayed and it is a very nice smooth finish. (until the panel pins holding the beads in went rusty... but thats another story...)

We had some windows made a few years ago and the guy swore by Sandolin paint. What a load of crap that was! Didn't even last 2 years.

 

[doctor Bob]

Have a look at westbury windows and garden rooms in south woodham ferrers.
John Mumford sold his company a few years ago and now works for Westbury, their windows are better than mumford and wood in my opinion.
I bought 20 weighted sash windows, 2 doors and a set of french doors 2 years ago and they were very good value (way less than your quote), I went down and haggled with them.
Amazing quality, I have a furniture business and was going to make them myself but I'm delighted I bought them in the end.
Perfect in everyway.

 

[thomashenry]

What's wrong with the existing windows - where are they rotten? A lot of the time with sash windows, the sill and the bottom of the box sides will be rotten due to incorrect paint being used, portland cement, etc. Quite often the sashes themselves will be perfectly salvagable with some fairly easy TLC.

This summer I replaced/refurbished a sash window. The two sashes were ok, so I stripped them right back to bare wood, took them apart and then reglued and reglazed them.

The sashbox was rotten in the way I described, so I took it apart, kept the good timber and made a new box using that salvaged timber and new timber for the sill, outer faces, and stiles. Making a sash box is really not that hard and requires no difficuly joinery. I did mine entirely with standard hand tools.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

It was a fairly lengthy process with lots of stages, but none of it was difficult. Of course, if you need to make new sashes, then there is a significant extra task involved. I will be attempting that this summer with another of my windows.

Total cost for the job was no more than £120 including glazing, timber and paint.

That certainly is an option. The cills are shot. The sash boxes have all been repaired in the past, so there are scarf joints at the bottom 6 inches. These are all shot.

The sashes are mostly ok. Two have rot thats gone through the bottom rails and one stile. I want to fit double glazing so they all have to come out and either be re-machined or replaced.

The sash weights will all need replacing.

I want to fit draught strips.

So maybe I could refurb. But to be honest, I'd like to replace with Accoya and forget about them for a few years!

One quote I had was for refurb, but it was exactly (like within £100) of replacement, which is odd. But £9500 to refurb 2 windows maybe gives an idea of how much work there is...

Once I get the windows out and apart I can assess the actual state of the word and if it's fine, I will reuse it.

My windows are certainly well beyond a work over with a burr and a load of filler!

£4750 to refurbish a window is just insane money. Insane. It’s really not hard or expensive - just takes a little while.

I’d avoid double glazing though - horrible stuff IMO. Also, I’m totally unsold on Acoya. My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.

Incorrect paint and use of materials like Portland cement, expandable foam etc are the reasons cills rot.

 

[Trevanion]

My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.

Except that the pine they had 150 years ago is 150 times the quality of any pine you could get your hands on today.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

This is the correct way to do this but is also the most time consuming and laborious method. You could never do it this way and expect to make any money as people who tend to buy the windows have no clue about it and just want it as cheap as possible. If you're twice the price of everyone else, you'll never get any work.

As much as I would love to spend a week waiting for paint to dry, another hour per window ramming oakum into the window voids and then spend half a day mixing lime cement, it really isn't economical on a professional scale.

 

[thomashenry]

My windows are 150 years old - as far as I’m concerned, that’s a pretty good advert for pine.

Except that the pine they had 150 years ago is 150 times the quality of any pine you could get your hands on today.

I refitted everything, using folding wedges, oakum and lime mortar instead of foam and portland cement. Painted with linseed paint.

This is the correct way to do this but is also the most time consuming and laborious method. You could never do it this way and expect to make any money as people who tend to buy the windows have no clue about it and just want it as cheap as possible. If you're twice the price of everyone else, you'll never get any work.

As much as I would love to spend a week waiting for paint to dry, another hour per window ramming oakum into the window voids and then spend half a day mixing lime cement, it really isn't economical on a professional scale.

I agree that people aren’t generally willing to pay for it, hence all the problems so many windows now have. But if the OP is willing to do the work himself, it’s well worth doing IMO.

As for the the pine - I’ve normally been able to keep myself in old reclaimed pine. On my street alone, 5 houses must have had loft conversions in the last 5 years, with each one resulting in lots of rafters and some purlins ending up in skips, lovely 150 year old pine. My local reclaimed wood yard (Oxford wood recycling) normally has plenty of this sort of thing too.

This is all extra work of course, it needs denailing, planing and re sawing but if the OP find he only needs to make the boxes and doesn’t need to make any sashes, it’s eminently doable.