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I wonder who at Hull N.H.S. came up with the idea,
a sailor perhaps.
I.M.O. any money given to the N.H.S. should be
spent within the N.H.S. and not on this.
Also this forum is here for people to debate,
not to be called names ( i.e. "dried up old men").
I cannot see anything wrong with any of Rich's posts
on the subject and i think that Rich is to be congratulated
on the manner of his replies.
Over and out. :wink:
 
Kevin, I used to live in Sunderland in the very bad old days of the early 70s. Of a class I taught in 1970 not one kid got a job when they left school. Not a single one.

Do you really think that nothing should be done to give those kids a purpose in life?

I stand by what I have written, and ask - is a mild insult worse than cynicism and patronising anyone who actually knows what they are talking about? I would say not, and PMs I have received agree.
 
Smudger":3hrr1wr2 said:
Lincolnshirebodger":3hrr1wr2 said:
Smudger":3hrr1wr2 said:
Well yes, you can take young people from disadvantaged backgrounds and give them the kicking they so obviously deserve, don't give 'em anything to do, tell 'em what rubbish they are. And then they will become model citizens, eh?

Or possibly do something to give them an interest and a bit of self-respect.

I despair of some of the rubbish I read here, I really do. If you knew anything about it at all you would know that schemes such as Outward Bound and the Duke of Edinburgh's Award Scheme (not to mention the Prince's Trust) have a tremendously positive effect on large numbers of disaffected kids. This is more of the same. A personal challenge, which is how people learn about themselves and develop.

Don't bother arguing back, I won't be drawn into another one of these threads again.

Actually, i spent 5 years teaching YOPS and YTS kids, you should try something similar, it was a real eye opener.............

I spent 35 years teaching kids like that. What do I know?

Well let me share a couple of anecdotes about it..........

One lad said to me one day "do you want a car for £50' ? I said 'what make/model is is it". he said " We dont know yet...." (I realised after he was seriously offering to steal one for me, and he didnt think that was wrong).

We put Rachel on placement with a lady who worked from home as a consultant, to take calls, do filing etc. She sent Rachel back within 3 days "She's bloody useless.... she wont answer the phone, I end up picking it up myself all the time" she said. We got Rachel back and interviewed her. "She says you wont answer the phone", we said to her. Rachel stopping chewing her gum and dong her nails for a second to scowl and say 'Well its always for her..........."

I have a torrent of such illuminating scraps..............
 
Smudger":1wiqm65d said:
Kevin, I used to live in Sunderland in the very bad old days of the early 70s. Of a class I taught in 1970 not one kid got a job when they left school. Not a single one.

Do you really think that nothing should be done to give those kids a purpose in life?

I stand by what I have written, and ask - is a mild insult worse than cynicism and patronising anyone who actually knows what they are talking about? I would say not, and PMs I have received agree.


I think that a shame. I left school in 1970. On the last day there would be a big assembly and every one who was leaving would troop onto stage one by one to receive a book from the Head, shake hands, and a short comment by the Careers Master over the PA would announce where they had got a job. Out of an entire year of 200 pupils the number that didnt get jobs you could have counted on the fingers of one hand. Most of the girls either got office jobs, hairdressing or shops, the lads mainly got jobs in the local engineering industry or joined the services
 
No, it really was like that. One boy applied to be a stoker in the navy, but got turned down. The shipyards and pits were closing and Nissan hadn't arrived. The quese for the Youth Unemployment Office stretched a quarter of a mile, and there were levels of poverty that were third-world in some parts of the town. Kevin - what is Harold Street like now? In 1969 it was hellish.

Such kids are now called NEETs in government circles - Not in Education, Employment or Training. Partly it is a result of the loss of primary sector jobs - not everyone can get, or wants, 5 'good' GCSEs - and partly a collapse in morale amongst many working-class kids and those from some ethnic minority groups.

What to do with them is a real problem. Many are from inadequate homes with very weak support networks apart from their peer group, and have little personal resource to call upon. Schemes such as the sailing project are an attempt to build up that level of personal resource. Which is why, when we see such a thing, instead of just another knee-jerk reaction we might actually think about what it is setting out to do.

But, of course, that means setting aside cynicism and prejudice, which is just as much a handicap as the impoverished lives of so many of these youths.
 
From what I have read recently I believe the plan is to spend £1.75mill on buying a yacht and launching a sailing school for Hull which has been stated to be one of our countries most deprived cities.

£400,000 on the yacht the remainder on setting up and running the scheme until 2011.

It will be open to locals aged 17-19 who are out of work and not at college and is limited to 150 places per year.

In principle I think this type of initiative should be applauded. To take them off the streets for at least a short while may give them some interest and a purpose in life. Additional benefits should be them learning discipline and respect for others- it will not be an easy ride for many of them. Hopefully what they learn will better equip them to deal with life and its ups and downs in a positive way.

I truly believe that a short life at sea would benefit the individuals and society in general.

What does concern me is the amount of money being spent in total (£1.75mill) vs the number of people (est. 450 over 3years to 2011) this scheme will serve. Are there better ways to use this money that will serve more people (within the same group) and still have the desired effect?

Cheers :D
Tony
 
I want to see the "yacht". I've done a search but haven't found anything that identifies the vessel they want to buy.

I wish our city (or county) could do something of this nature but since you walk across the largest body of water in town without getting your knees wet, a yacht wouldn't go very far.

It is a lot of money but at risk youth already cost the community a lot of money and all too frequently never give anything back because they end up in prison. If they gain some sense of purpose, self respect as well as some respect for others, perhaps they'll become useful members of society--assets instead of liabilities.

This might also be accomplished in some sort of land-based ventures but consider this. If you're the kid in the program and you decide you don't like it, with a land-based thing, you could just walk away. Where are you going to go if you're 100 miles from the nearest shore? You'll either sink, swim or learn to get along. In existing sail training programs, the youth involved more often than not, come out as much better people than they went in.

You know, though, if these youth had parents who actually did their jobs as parents, we'd have a lot less problem in this area. I'm not going to get on a soapbox about that though.

Ta ta.
 
Dave R":22nkbzor said:
I want to see the "yacht". I've done a search but haven't found anything that identifies the vessel they want to buy.
I do not think that full details of the yacht have been disclosed. As yet it is an agreement in principle to spend £400,000 on a 72 foot yacht. One of the papers published this picture stating that the money would buy a yacht like this
yacht.jpg


Cheers :D
Tony
 
The Independent reckons they are buying this now the race is over:

http://www.hullhumberclipper.com/race.htm

I have to say that while I support this kind of thing generally, a PCT seems an odd agency to be funding it - and whether they need quite such a posh boat to achieve the worthy ends seems a little questionable.
 
I used to know all the details once, but time has mercifully robbed me of them - but there are now 'joined-up' plans for the improvement of the health and welfare of young people and PCTs have a role in that (along with education, social services etc.) I imagine that there has just been an imaginative use of budgets.

To be perfectly honest, in terms of projects that waste taxpayers money (an the Department of Comedy and Science Fiction are nowhere near the worst, I hear) £400k is chickenfeed.
 
Smudger":3p1ck6bt said:
To be perfectly honest, in terms of projects that waste taxpayers money (an the Department of Comedy and Science Fiction are nowhere near the worst, I hear) £400k is chickenfeed.
:lol:

Don't forget the additional cost of funding for 3 years £1.3mill. Still you may be correct that it is chickenfeed compared to other waste of taxpayers money.

Cheers :D
Tony
 
I appreciate the accounting differences between capital and running cost.

Maybe it is just inaccurate reporting in the press then for a change :D

The Independent quoted £1.35 million to buy and run the yacht also stating that the yacht would cost £400,000

The Mail quoted £1.75 including £400k for capital purchase.
 
Smudger":1123njnf said:
No, it really was like that. One boy applied to be a stoker in the navy, but got turned down. The shipyards and pits were closing and Nissan hadn't arrived. The quese for the Youth Unemployment Office stretched a quarter of a mile, and there were levels of poverty that were third-world in some parts of the town. Kevin - what is Harold Street like now? In 1969 it was hellish.

Such kids are now called NEETs in government circles - Not in Education, Employment or Training. Partly it is a result of the loss of primary sector jobs - not everyone can get, or wants, 5 'good' GCSEs - and partly a collapse in morale amongst many working-class kids and those from some ethnic minority groups.

What to do with them is a real problem. Many are from inadequate homes with very weak support networks apart from their peer group, and have little personal resource to call upon. Schemes such as the sailing project are an attempt to build up that level of personal resource. Which is why, when we see such a thing, instead of just another knee-jerk reaction we might actually think about what it is setting out to do.

But, of course, that means setting aside cynicism and prejudice, which is just as much a handicap as the impoverished lives of so many of these youths.

Its not much use going to UNI either these days. I spent years telling my son that he needed to go to Uni to get a decent job, then changed my mind as he approached 18. Theres a Joke that sums it up:

Q: Whats the first thing a student with a Degree in Tourism says to you?
A: Do you want fries with that ?

The problem is that in its quest to squeeze the last red cent out of the population and all its businesses and organisations, the government has attempted to turn Unis into businesses, which is self evidently rubbish to start off with.

Uni's used to teach forms of knowledge that were good for the country, but not necessarily easy to do, like Pure Maths, Physics and Chemistry. Thus the standard of person doing such courses was high, because these subjects are difficult. Then the government said "You have to raise your own funding now by charging for courses and make a profit"

This fundamentally changed the name of the game. Now, the object of the exercise is to attract as much money as you can, not turn out the smartest kids.

How do Uni's do this? They have invented useless courses like Degrees in Tourism and BSc in Folklore and Mythology (both real). These courses ahve been made deliberately easy to pass, because they then attract the big money, which is foreign students. Courses are now dumbed down to cater for overseas students, because theirs no money in local students. I mean, what the hell use is a degree in Folklore, or tourism?

We need to turn out engineers, mathematicians, chemists, biologists and geneticists, these are the people who create wealth for a country, not people who can tell you who Gandalfs third cousin was, or where the best place to have a holiday is.

The english HE system is a sad reflection of what happens when you get overly political interference in Education.
 
The whole English education system is a sad reflection of what happens when you get political influence in education. The rot really set in about 1980, and since then no politician/political party has been able to resist the temptation.

And then there is Ed 'call me Mr Balls' Balls. Nominative determinism or what?
 
Like many folk here seem to be, I am of an age that encourages me to deplore modern yoof , education and much else besides. If I am honest with myself ( a rare occurrence I do admit), I tend to ignore what is good about modern trends in areas such as education. For example, my grandchildren, largely courtesy of the system, are far better equipped than I was at their age to deal with the real world, they are better able to present ideas and themselves to any kind of audience AND they can program the video - so to speak..

I think comparisons with the past are a fairly sterile area for examination whatever we think. Much more important in my view is how we compare with the rest of the world. Sadly, comparisons with much of it, Asia particularly, are also very depressing inasmuch they show that the UK is falling behind in many important, wealth creating fields - especially science and science education. What is worrying me is that those same asian youths are also able to present etc..
 
waterhead37":1ov1qnmu said:
the UK is falling behind in many important, wealth creating fields - especially science and science education. What is worrying me is that those same asian youths are also able to present etc..

Thats right. Thats cos those countries teach there kids to read, write and add up, and then give them degrees in something useful. Then they go on to wipe us out in industry and science.

Because in the end, industry and science is what makes your country wealthy. Everything else is a side show.
 
Well hopefully this wont offend anybody.
Good points about 'outward bound, Duke of Edinburgh' etc and I agree wholeheartedly that they indeed have shown kids that there is life off the streets.
The same applies of course to the Scouts and so on.
But surely that is not the purpose or function of the NHS?

Roy.
 
See earlier comments. Responsibility for Young People provision is now spread more widely. I don't know if that is the case here, but it could well be.
 
That may well be so but horses for courses I think. Other groups are much better equipped and suited to this sort of task than the NHS.
Money would be better spent adding funding to those with suitable expertise then setting up a parallel operation IMO.
Equally we wouldn't expect to see the Prince's Trust running courses in clinical surgery.

Roy.
 
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