router failure in router tables

[ronhayles]

Please read what I have written, not what you think I have written. The failed router was a Froud 2000 unit costing over two hundred and fifty pounds way back. Please see my previous submissions. My current one is also a Froud unit. Low budget!!! How about an apology. I did not say I would employ my friend the tool maker. he has looked after me very well as I have looked after him for over forty years. I thought this forum was for sharing problems, offering support and help, not pouring scorn. It is my opinion, as valid as your opinions, that two seperate manufaccturers have put on the market a router table with a dedicated motor indicaters that there is a market for such a product.. Watch for more. please do not respond. I need support not heated opinion.

 

[Digit]

A dedicated motor seems the logical next step, after all, fitting a hand tool to a bench device is a compromise.
It's a bit like the fact that a few years ago, not so many either, that the living room had a separate TV, satellite receiver, video system, computer etc, and now much of that is one self contained unit.

Roy.

 

[ronhayles]

Thanks, Digit...The problem, as I see it, is that innovations in the woodworking sector outside America are manufacturer driven..ie. why produce something better when customers keep buying the present products? I'm comfortable with those who are satisfied with what they have, and lets be honest, it does the job well. Time comes when someone wakes up to a better system and the committed discover that there is a better way and wonder why it has not been done sooner. I am convinced that the American sector will eventually go in the direction of the dedicated motor. There are American celebrity woodworkers who tend to drive American manufacturers, not the other way around. The cost of quality routers can be sustained by those who, through business, can cover their cost. For us who tinker, a router is now an essential tool but two to three hundred pounds for a quality router is beyond us. I think the Woodstar and such machines will improve in quality and meet our needs at a more reasonable cost. We shall see. Ron

 

[ronhayles]

argee. If you have something to say, say it on this site, don't hide away in private messages. You are simply trying to put your solution into my problems. The sense in which I would employ my toolmaker friend would not entail cost. I scratch his back and so on. For your information, the cost of materials involved, two feet of half inch round silver steel and three feet of stainless steel for the cage would be less than five pounds, plus the four bearings and it would be assembled at his work place..no big deal...got that one wrong. I just wish he was well enough to confound you by producing this. Me thinks you have tunnel vision and cannot see beyond your own expectations. I trust you will stick to your word and not involve yourself in this topic further.

 

[Argee]

argee. If you have something to say, say it on this site, don't hide away in private messages ... I trust you will stick to your word and not involve yourself in this topic further.

I try to keep civil, but as you were ranting, I decided to take it off-air. However, since you insist:

Please read what I have written, not what you think I have written. The failed router was a Froud 2000 unit costing over two hundred and fifty pounds way back. Please see my previous submissions. My current one is also a Froud unit. Low budget!!! How about an apology.

"I have read every word, including many that were repeated ad nauseam. You should take your own advice - my reference to "low budget" was directed to the Returns Department I visited, not to your routers, which I thought would be obvious to anyone (else) reading the response.

I did not say I would employ my friend the tool maker.

Really? - here is what you said, word for word: "If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option."

I thought this forum was for sharing problems, offering support and help, not pouring scorn ...... I need support not heated opinion.

You've been offered solutions, support, opinions, suggestions and help. Good luck with continuing to receive it. I couldn't be less heated, incidentally - and you seem not to be able to differentiate between scorn and simple irritation."

So, you tell me to keep everything public, then not to respond. This, like everything else, smacks of confusion. Your PM showed, without doubt, how little you know about me, my experience and my contribution here over several years. Now I'm out of this thread, your goading notwithstanding.

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To the membership in general, I apologise for taking up so much space in my replies. As you're aware, I tend to be verbose, but rarely inaccurate or personal. There have been two exceptions recently, LB and this thread, but I don't feel the need to explain further, or continue.

Ray.

 

[ronhayles]

argee. You are obviously a caring concened woodworker who likes to help,but...you are a traditionalist...I am a progressive..therein is the conflict. your thought pattern is "pipper, it's broke, lets replace it" my response is. "pipper, its broke..WHY!! is it something I have done, could I have avoided it, is it because its a hand held router placed under a bench? lets return it to the manufacturer and discover the problem. Manufacturers response. Failure due to dust ingression..reccomendation Buy our latest machine which has addressed this problem. Ten years later I am getting a similar sound from my machine that indicates another posssible failure. Thinks..Could there be a better solution. I know, join a forum and discover whether there is an alternative..Asks for reviews of the Woodstar. Has no more sense than to mention failure of present router due to dust ingresssion. This has provoked a response that takes over my request for info about alternatives. As much as you might disagree, I am convinced that an alternative to an expensive router slung under a table will emerge. I have suggested how I would design this alternative. this has brought scorn from some...Time will tell who has their eye on the ball. last comment. I never told you not to respond on this forum. You said that you would not do so and I replied that I trust you will stick to that decision... but lets stay friendly and agree to disagree.. regards Ron.

 

[p111dom]

As much as you might disagree, I am convinced that an alternative to an expensive router slung under a table will emerge.

But that's exactly what the fox and woodstar machines are. Cheap router motors in budget tables. This concept has emerged. Is in the public domain and at £100 ish I don't think you could get much cheaper. The concensus has been that a machine at this price is too compromised on quality for the average users of this forum. If it's sufficient for you then fine but you have our collective opinion that you may be disappointed. You don't have to follow this advice and by all means buy it, but it seems to me that you've tried to convert everyone's less than favourable remarks about this machine into a recommendation which never happened and now you feel aggrieved by it. No ones trying to pour scorn on your suggestion but you asked for a opinion which we have given. If there was a chance you weren't going to like the answer, perhaps you shouldn't have asked.

 

[ronhayles]

dom..I don't wish to get into issues with you. I came on this forum to ask if anyone had bought and used the woodstar. I have had one favourable response from someone who has purchased this machine, used it, and thinks it is OK.. Others have presumably SEEN this machine and have put it down. I now have to ask myself why I am getting private responses supporting my stance. Are they not wishing to risk the wrath of those who are disagreeing with me? Let's put the issue of router failure due to dust to bed. It is a red herring. My machine is likely to fail. I have a budget of about one hundred and fifty pounds to replace, this to include a means of removing the dust fallout. You can now see why I am looking for a machine such as the Woodstar. I can well understand why you think this is a bad move. Take the cost issue out and I did not need advice. I would have already bought a new machine. I have nearly sixty years of woodworking knowledge. I probably know as much, if not more than those who are challenging my responses. I have had a router under my table for sixteen, or more years. I have built my own house, for goodness sake, installed all electrics, fully pumped central heating and hot water followed by a pumped power shower. I know my onions. What I do not have here on the Island is businesses that carry a huge range of machinery. It is very costly to come to the mainland..hence my efforts to gain from other people's experience through this forum. Your claim that there is a consencus of opinion against me is false. as always, those who feel strongly, shout the loudest and you shout with them. If you have advice that will address my problem, then I have a ready ear but I will stand against those who claim to know it all and put my opinions down. Right..Let's start all over again...Can you help me with my problem??

 

[Digit]

My entirely home made set up has a large hole in the router plate so dust dropping through is a problem, especially when grooving.
I have fitted, as I have explained before, an Acylic shield to the router, an Hitachi12V, that prevents dust entering the router.
This was added as an addition 'cos under the conditions of usage dust ingress was a problem.
One problem with router use in tables that is raised here regularly is the loss of plunge when fitted into a table. This is a consequence of the majority of routers being designed predominantly for hand use.
Modern car engines are the result of development of a century old concept and the use of the fuel that permitted the change of fuel from town gas with the least modification.
Were the engine to be designed today from scratch, and with a choice of fuels, the end product would be somewhat different.
The same point exists with hand held routers mounted in tables.
When I purchased my first router, tables were not generally available, you made your own.
If a router/table combination were now to be designed as a piece I doubt very much that the router would be suitable for hand use and some of the short comings could be addressed.

Roy.

 

[ivan]

Apples!I know from the old day job that much UK apple industry would not compete with French and others on quality so sales gradually declined leading to orchards being grubbed out all over Kent. Industry was too many small and "independent minded" growers to adapt. Restructured industry is re appearing.
Routers My router table has a Ryobi 601 fitted, which at the time 10 odd years ago was very much a "low cost" option. For eg it has a much smaller main bearing that a DW625 and clones. because it is fitted with Ryobi's plastic vac extraction fitting it is extremely difficult for any dust to fall in the ventilation slots even when the router is off. I only exercise extra care (secondary plastic disk on shaft) when routing aluminium. No breakdowns yet. With a cranked spanner, you easily change bits above the table.
New big Festool has useful additional feature for table use - both columns locked together. Cuts vibration others can show when plunge bushes wear a bit. Doubtless other will follow.
A well made router+table of Jessem quality is getting into small spindle pricing, (and Festool even more) so it's hard to see an end to adapting a standard plunge router, very economical to produce as sold in such enormous numbers.

 

[Digit]

Cuts vibration others can show when plunge bushes wear a bit.

Agreed.
So let's think 'outside the box!'
This is my idea of what a dedicated table router would not have/have...
No Aluminium base...
No plastic cover to the base...
No springs...
No on/off switch...
No speed control...
No handles...
No depth adjuster...
No circle cutting device...
No fence.
This should make it a bit cheaper.
It would have...
The ability to use commercially available router cutters...
A combined NVR/speed control at the front of the table...
Above and below table dust extraction...
Above table height adjustment...
Above table cutter change...
Preferably three pillars.
Also for those who, like me don't like a table balanced on a bench top...
The above criteria on a table insert, (no table) for those who wish to insert the whole assembly into their own bench/work top etc.

Roy.

 

[Doug B]

Roy,
If you don`t have speed control, how can you safely use larger commercially available router cutters?
I`ve been reading this thread as it has progressed, & although i don`t disagree with both sides of the argument, i don`t see how a machine can be produced that will be of acceptable quality for the £100 - £200 mark.
When any retailer will want to make 50 percent of the sale price, by the time you put shipping, materials & manufacturing costs in to the equation it ceases to be viable.
All you end up with is the two cheap, poor quality makes that have been mentioned.
I like the idea of a fixed motor machine, but think to get acceptable accuracy from such a machine would come at to high a cost, such as the Rutlands model.
So for the time being i will perceiver with the T11 in a router table.

 

[Digit]

Hi James, you missed the bit where I said to incorporate it with the NVR switch.
Price wise yes, initially. When sales rise the price drops, just look at routers, DVD players, white goods etc.
Some years ago I built and entire hardwood kitchen using a circular say fixed to the underside of a piece of ply with a batten clamped in place as a fence.
Did the job but I've moved on to a 'proper' TS.
Clamping a router that is designed for hand use to the under side of a table is the same as my Heath Robinson table saw.
Things move on.

Roy.

 

[Doug B]

Sorry Roy , i did miss that.
I think what you say is right to a point, but i still feel to get a suitably sized motor to drive a large cutter in a stable way with your requirements would not come down to Rons budget, no matter how large the demand.
It would be interesting to know what the maximum diameter cutter is that could be used in the versions already mentioned, as vibration is the last thing you want.

 

[Digit]

I don't know the unit costs of each part that goes into a router, but not producing or fitting the parts that I listed would logically reduce the basic part, plus the cost of the table of course. For those who wanted the table that is. Personally I find tables a pain in the lower back, in both senses of the word!

Roy.

 

[Finwoodman]

Have spent many hours just scouring your invaluable forum but couldn't resist contributing to this thread (Newbie post). I was at a woodworking forum here in Finland a few weeks ago and spotted the RUWI Gmbh routing and milling machine that is probably OTT for Ron's requirements but will surely put a smile on many of your faces. Given that this is my first post I can't outline the URL (which contains RUWI-online.de) but please check it out

 

[ronhayles]

I agree with both sides of this discussion and it does seem that I am hoping for the impossible for the moment..but that is what I entered this forum to discover. I have not had a look at the Woodstar and would be very interested in seeing any manufacturers litature. I am guessing that the motor in this unit is borrowed from another piece of kit. I am also guessing that the manufacturer is dipping his toe into the water, so to speak and if it is viable might just produce a dedicated motor capable of matching those now in hand held routers. I had an interesting discussion during my research, with a guy working in the industry here supplying and servicing electric motors. He tells me that there are literally thousands of different motors produced for industry. He said that there are motors capable of withstanding steam conditions. He thought these could meet my spec to exclude dust. So! maybe there is no need to produce a new motor and that somewhere out there is the perfect motor just waiting to be used for routing. It could be shaped differently from the present set up and smaller in heighth.. Maybe..I just keep thinking and talking to people hoping something will come from it all. If you work hard at dreams, sometimes they come true. Ron

 

[Digit]

Sealed motors are certainly available Ron. Cost again here I'm afraid.

Roy.

 

[Jake]

DeWalt (and probably Elu before them) used to sell a motor-only router.

They don't any more, from a quick look at their website.

 

[ronhayles]

Ivan..apples. my main hobby over the past twenty five years is indentifying and propogating old apple varieties. I have spent many an hour with staff at Brogdale, roaming the orchard and testing different varieties, likewise with Harry Baker at Wisley, the Guru of english apples. The demise in English apple production is generally held at the supermarket's door in demanding even sized apples. The French varieties are available some weeks earlier than english apples and that has contributed. Yet, England has the perfect climate to grow apples. They are later in maturing but this gives them the flavour that no other countries apples can match. I am enjoying ten different varieties from my garden at this time. Some light relief from our other subject.