router failure in router tables

[Derek Willis.]

I have a router table that I made about 16 years ago, although my router, along with everyone else's blows the dust away from the buisness end, when you are trenching and you cover the aperture, it is very difficult to stop the dust going in, I alleviated this by putting a box tunnel under the top, ending near the router, and I connect my vacuum extractor to this when the router is covered, thus extracting all dust from the works.
Derek.

 

[ronhayles]

Hi folks..just catching up...Pleased to hear of the quick exchange of the woodstar..Good reccomendation. I'm interested in that stripped down router unit. Can I find this on the Net as to manufacturer..availability. I guess that we all experience failures in our equipment and we have to accept the manufacturers reason for the failure. I was told that my router failed due to dust ingress. The natural response is to avoid this happening again and as much as I accept your testamonies that it hasn't happened to you, it is when it does happen that you seek a resolution that will guarantee non failure. I will still chase after my idea of a totally new approach and a dedicated motor that is built to fit under a table and remain there with a rise and fall mech that is independant of the motor.

 

[neilyweely]

p111dom

PLease tell me what that was you showed us, I mean I know what it is, but what's it called and how much is it?

It looks good, doesn't it?

Neil

 

[Jake]

The red anodising is a clue (if you know the company already) that it is by Jessem http://www.jessem.com/mast_r_lift.htm

 

[p111dom]

Available from Rutlands and yes it's by Jessems. It's £200 plus the motor which is alot. I wasn't suggesting you buy one. I was just pointing out that what you described is available and at £400+ is probably why there isn't a mass market for it.

 

[ronhayles]

Thanks for the response and details. No! at that price I will not be buying one, but it interests me just the same. Reading through this site there is an inescapable fact that putting a hand held router inverted under a table does create issues. Using an air line is not an option for the many hundreds like me who do not have this facility and cobbling together some method to prevent dust reaching the motor can also be beyond us. It calls for a rethink. If Woodstar can produce a table, albeit, a low end product for under two hundred pounds, then producing a stand alone dedicated motor at a reasonable cost is possible. All the time we accept the limitations of the present set up then the manufacturers will remain complacent. Because of my location, getting to woodworking shows is not easy but when the opportunity does arise then I bang on about this problem to the manufacterers. We all need to do this to get them to rethink. I would like to get close to a spindle moulder to see that set up. Could an uprated motor in this set up be an answer?

 

[ike]

....there is an inescapable fact that putting a hand held router inverted under a table does create issues.

...for some maybe.

I think quality routers are well designed enough to cope perfectly well with any amount of dust. If anything it's the on-off switch that suffers - but that's a fairly moot point when the router is switched via a seperate NVR switch, which is normal in router tables.

regards,

ike

 

[p111dom]

I really think you are making a big deal about a problem that isn't there. I've ran my router in table for 3 years now and its had lots of use. Yes every now and then I do run the airline over it but you can buy compressed air in an aerosol can if you don't want to buy a compressor or have space issues. It's just part of my regular maintanance routine. With a moulder or the Jessems you'd still have to do the same. Moulders tend to be belt driven but you still want to remove the dust from the worm gear etc every now and then. I would have thought that the Woodstar would be the same. Spindle moulders are something different entirely. The principle is the same but they are much more powerful, are bigger, more expensive and run slower. It depends on your application. If you are making sash windows 10 at a time then the spindle moulder is probably the one for you. If not the stick with a router in a table. Feel free to the buy the woodstar but if the quality and capacities mean you've out grown it after a month it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Derek Willis.]

I would like to add that, I had a Freud 2000 C.V.E. router in my table for over 16 years with no problem whatsoever, yes a small amount of dust drops down but the fan rejects it, earlier this year, I bought another router of the same model because I broke a cutter and destroyed the fan blades, otherwise i have no doubt the original one would still be going. My table router, by the way, is in use every day, more or less.
Derek.

 

[ronhayles]

Dom.. feel free to think I am making something of nothing. I think differently. It is obvious that you, and those who think like you have never had a problem and are constantly using their routers on a day to day basis. I have many friends who use their machines as a recreation and cannot afford those 'quality machines', and like me are searching for something that is within our budget. The cost of modern routers are costly because they have on them so much that is not needed when put under a table. Why should we be expected to pay for something we will never use? I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers. I had thought that I could enlist the support of the big boys in helping those of us who are looking for something less expensive. If I am getting up your noses, just say so and I will fade away and search for others to support my campaign.

 

[Argee]

Dom.. feel free to think I am making something of nothing. I think differently. It is obvious that you, and those who think like you have never had a problem and are constantly using their routers on a day to day basis. I have many friends who use their machines as a recreation and cannot afford those 'quality machines', and like me are searching for something that is within our budget.

If so many of us are using our routers without a problem, on a daily basis, doesn't that suggest that there's no problem with what you refer to as "quality machines?" There's a solution in there somewhere.

The cost of modern routers are costly because they have on them so much that is not needed when put under a table.

No, that's not the case at all. Routers in this country are primarily plunge routers - IOW, made for hand-held use, hence the current designs. Inverted use is the by-product, not the other way around. In the US, fixed-base routers are the norm and - as such - are much more "stripped down" in their design.

Why should we be expected to pay for something we will never use? I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers. I had thought that I could enlist the support of the big boys in helping those of us who are looking for something less expensive. If I am getting up your noses, just say so and I will fade away and search for others to support my campaign.

You haven't made any sort of case, just repeated your opinion, failing to take account of other views - which were just as sincerely offered - then allege that we've got an attitude. If, as you state, there was a "huge potential market," we would already be seeing fixed-base routers in their droves. However, it's difficult to find one (although I did manage to, using Google).

The "big boys" don't feel the need to increase or diversify their current range for a very good reason - there's no need, because there's no demand. There are many, less expensive, routers on the market, but you can't expect them to be as trouble-free as the quality machines that cause no problems. Ebay may be your logical next step.

Ray.

 

[neilyweely]

Ron -
If I am repeating what someone else has already stated, then please ignore me.
There is only one, to my knowledge, fixed base router, for sale in the UK, at normal outlets. That is a Bosch, and it is both a fixed and plunge base package. And to tell you the truth I quite like the look of it. However, I have to say I think Argee may be right here, as you would think that if there was a demand for fixed base routers here, the manufacturers would be well aware, and would jump on it.
As far as the woodstar is concerned is it is the same basic chassis as the performance power pro thing I had. The differences are the increase in power, and the fact that it has a handle for rise and fall where the one I had doesn't. I say had because I got shot of it. It was not a good design, and the other RT's I have used have been better. That is to say that the RT's with plunge routers fitted have very noticeably outperformed the table with the dedicated motor fitted.


P111dom - OK, I have seen that before. I thought that the pic you showed was a different model. Maybe a long time since I seen the shot.

I have been considering a MDF box, with a threaded rod and two guiding bars set up vertically to guide the raise/lower function of the box.
Obviously the router would have to be securely fitted to the box, and the box to the router table set up. I do seem to remember seeing a homemade system before, can anyone help me out here?

Anyway, as stated earlier, my Elu mof177 was in a table, at college, being BATTERED daily, for 20 years before I rescued it.

Good evenin all

Neil

 

[Digit]

Draper do a nice kit where the router body is supplied with two bases, one is plunge base and the other a fixed type.

Roy.

 

[sooty]

Fox do a small router built into a table its on sale at rutlands for about £110.00
http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/F60100A

There is a small review of it Fox F60 router table in Oct/Nov issue of British Woodworking

 

[ronhayles]

I remember the Super markets claiming that they never stocked english apples because there was no call for them, people preferred the imported apples. Sainsbury's now have their own english apple orchards!!! If the product is not available, how do the manufacturers know there is no market? The result is that people buy cheap routers manufactured abroad. The inventor of the woodrat could have easily thought that there was no market..and the same goes for every new invention. I have simply looked at a situation, evalued it and recognised that the present router is designed for hand held use and has limitations when inverted. I am told that a dedicated motor in a rise and fall cage could be produced for under a hundred pounds. I have done my homework. If available, I can imagine that all those that buy cheap routers would be potential customers. What I had hoped was that in raising the issue I would get support from those who can and do use the more powerful routers. I have obviously not succeeded. The byword reaching me is that, because you have not had problems..there is no problem. For us on a budget..Yes!! there is a problem and a new approach could solve this. Ron.

 

[p111dom]

I sniff an 'I'm all right' attitude here. I have made my case and stick by it that there is a huge potential market out there for a dedicated motor, minus all the gubbins of the present routers.

Not at all we're just trying to help. I used to buy used routers from boot sales 15 years ago because I thought I couldn't afford to buy new. At £30 a pop they seemed like a good deal. All Black and Decker small plunge routers and none of them lasted more than a month. To make matters worse at 17 I really didn't learn my lesson and kept going back. I must have done this 5 or 6 times spending £150-£180 before I finally decided to buy a new one. I bought a performance pro one from B&Q. Two months later the bushes had worn out. Not a problem as they gave me a replacement straight away. Then next month the speed controller stopped working. Again I got a replacement. This one lasted about 6 months where again the speed controller failed. That replacement started sparking with a failed motor after about 6 months. That router was £89. Again this seemed good at the time but had I combined the £180 spent on second hand rubbish and added the 90 odd poundes I'd spent at B&Q to it I could have bought a router for £270. I bought my Trend T11 for £234 new so in the end I had a load of hassle for no gain at all. People talk about two issues. The "feel of a quality tool" which is hard to know exactly what they mean until you go from cheap DIY rubish to a Dewalt or Makita etc. Secondly people bang on about cheap tools being a false economy and having been in your situation with regards to budget I remember thinking the same as you at the time. I know they were right in retrospect.

As for your "case" to be honest I'm not seeing it. You've been given an opinion that your router failed due to dust ingress. This opinion could be wrong, could be right but I would have though cheap quality bearings or another failed internal component would be a more likely cause. Yet on the basis of one probably unqualified opinon you are prepared to rubbish everyone elses imput and rubbish other manufacturers products as if dust ingress is a industry wide problem that no one is doing anything about. Ever a motor on it's own would need some sort of fan a cooling vent so you would still have the problem(which I don't believe exists). Makita have just started selling a fixed based router in the UK as well as the Bosch. I don't know the price off the top of my head but it's a old design sold abroad and I don't believe it has variable speed control but that may suit your purpose better.

As for your great idea. It's not new and it's being done. There is a market for it but I wouldn't say it's huge. Again it comes down to economics. There's a far greated demand for plunge routers than fixed based or motor only. You may be surprised about the cost. I think the fact that they wouln't sell as many motors on their own would mean that they couldn't manufacturer them on the same scale or in the same bulk .This may mean they would be actually more expensive to sell than the plunge routers with all the bells and whistles you refuse to pay for. You can buy just the motors form quality manufacturenr like Porter Cable in the US. Check the web and find out the price .You just need a 110v box and be prepared to pay about $100 for the shipping. Then there's your metal cage for raising and lowering (again which is already being done).

I really have been throught all this my self. I don't think I have posted on this forum before that before my present set up when I was still running the B&Q router my self and my Dad made our own router raiser. This was based on Axminsters routerlift but having not seen it in the flesh and with no picture of the inner gubbins the build was all guess work. I know now that the router lift actually lifts a solid plate which you bolt the router to. We used the fence bars to attach it to ours. It worked well but not as well as the real deal. It was also expensive to make. I'll dig it out of the garage and take a picture, I stil use the metal inserts Dad made on my current table. I ditched it when I bought the T11 and after something like the 5th replacement B&Q router failed. It was still in warranty but it was costing a fortune in petrol going to pick up a replacement every other month.

 

[p111dom]

Can't have done that much research or you would have seen this one again at Rutlands for.............wait for it.............

£109.95

Problem solved!

 

[Grinding One]

I think what you need is a what we call a pin router Ron,It looks like a Radial arm saw only for Routers.Router mounts upright on arm above the table,a handle under the table raises or lowers the Arm with router attached.You can also mount a router under the table,helps in routing both sides at once if you wanted to.I have one of these too,havn`t use it in awhile.The main reason to have a table mounted Router in the USA is the horse power ,to dang hard to hang onto.But my 1 Hp I can hang onto quite well freehand.The 3 1/2 is definitely a table Router.
My Pin Router is also a Shopsmith by the way.

 

[ronhayles]

Dom..another false assumption. the router you pictured was reviewed in a recent woodworking mag. It's weakness is that it has a thin metal table top, unlike the Woodstar...research done, my friend.!! That there is another table top machine available does support my belief that there is a market out there. I have a router set in my homemade table. It sounds like it is ready to fail at any moment. I cannot embark on a project lest it should fail in the middle and financial restraints (the missus) forbids me replacing this machine. I do understand your motive to help but unless you see the problem from my prospective then all you are doing is offering advice from your prospective. It's not a problem for you so you don't see a problem..full stop. That's OK by me but don't accuse me of simply offering 'opinion'. The previous failure was diagnosed by the manufacturer with no replacement offered. Hardly a one man opinion. I started this thread asking if anyone had bought and used the Woodstar. I have had one response, mostly very favourable. If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option. A quality motor in a metal cage with rise and fall for under an hundred pounds would do me nicely, thanks.!! I am not aware of a pin router but guess that financial restraints would eliminate this, but I am interested and will go on the manufacturers site and see. Ron.

 

[Argee]

That there is another table top machine available does support my belief that there is a market out there.

No, it doesn't. All it shows is that there are two different poor-quality machines to buy. Your "belief" is actually an opinion to anyone else who doesn't share your belief.

I have a router set in my homemade table. It sounds like it is ready to fail at any moment. I cannot embark on a project lest it should fail in the middle and financial restraints (the missus) forbids me replacing this machine.

In your opinion it sounds like it might fail. What is anyone supposed to say about that, apart from "replace it, then."?

I do understand your motive to help but unless you see the problem from my prospective then all you are doing is offering advice from your prospective. It's not a problem for you so you don't see a problem..full stop. That's OK by me but don't accuse me of simply offering 'opinion'.

You've offered nothing else but opinion, as far as I can see (as above) The advice you've been offered has been from experience, not perspective (correctly spelt) - we cannot possibly advise you from your perspective - it's not possible, no-one can. To suggest that we can't see a problem unless it happens to us, is not only ludicrous, it's insulting. The answer is so obvious - buy a suitable tool. You've been advised on what is suitable and why, but that doesn't suit you because it doesn't agree with your opinion and/or your budget, neither of which we can do anything about.

The previous failure was diagnosed by the manufacturer with no replacement offered. Hardly a one man opinion.

How many men (at the manufacturer's returns department) do you think slaved over the diagnosis? I was recently at just such a Returns Department of a low-budget tool distributor, staffed by one inexperienced and unqualified person (who happened to be female, but that's not an issue, just a fact) who had a "script" of choices to reply with. Do you really imagine that low-budget tool companies worry (or even care) about the occasional failure?

I started this thread asking if anyone had bought and used the Woodstar. I have had one response, mostly very favourable. If I were younger than my seventy five years, I would employ my toolmaker friend to produce a unit to my specs, but he is my age now and that is not an option.

So, you could afford to employ a toolmaker to produce a unit for you, but you won't replace an obviously unsuitable tool? - madness.

A quality motor in a metal cage with rise and fall for under an hundred pounds would do me nicely, thanks.

I expect it would - but it's neither realistic, or ever likely to happen. Until you realise and accept this, you won't progress at all. No response required, I'm wasting my time contributing further to this thread.

Ray.