Rounding off Plane Iron Corners

[raffo]

The same people who gushed about cap irons and tool steels, and all the rest were some of the same people who used to gush over Clark & Williams single iron smoothers at a 55* pitch with an ultra-tight mouth. They weren't wrong, they weren't lying about their results, but that just became old news on the internet. It was simply time to move on to the NEXT BIG THING.

I think you are misinformed. The debate about the cap iron went on at woodcentral in 2012. Larry Williams, from Clark & Williams, argued that single iron planes from the 18th century were superior to double iron planes. David and Derek participated in that debate.

What people are you talking about? Why would you care what people prefer?

There's no virtue in stubbornly sticking to what one has been doing when a possibly better way is available. If one was all for tight mouths and high bedding angles and then changes his mind, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not following a fad.

 

[MikeK]

There's no virtue in stubbornly sticking to what one has been doing when a possibly better way is available.

Blasphemy!!! You shall burn!!!

There are those amongst us who denounce all techniques, tools, and practices that cannot be found in literature from the previous centuries. If a tool or method wasn't good enough for Thomas Chippendale, it has no place in today's workshop.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think you are misinformed. The debate about the cap iron went on at woodcentral in 2012. Larry Williams, from Clark & Williams, argued that single iron planes from the 18th century were superior to double iron planes. David and Derek participated in that debate.

What people are you talking about? Why would you care what people prefer?

There's no virtue in stubbornly sticking to what one has been doing when a possibly better way is available. If one was all for tight mouths and high bedding angles and then changes his mind, there's nothing wrong with that. It's not following a fad.

Nothing about the timeline refutes anything I've said in my post at all. The conversation could have happened in 1985 for all it matters. Larry Williams was, and I think still is, in business selling planes. Of course he thought they were great. What would you expect - him to go on an internet forum and state they were 2nd rate junk?

And besides all that, this "who posted it on the internet first" tracking of timelines, etc. makes it all the more comical to me. I hope at the end of my life I'll have accomplished more than beating somebody to the internet with a technique that was already 185++ years old when I happened to "discover"it.

 

[Trafalgar]

Blasphemy!!! You shall burn!!!

There are those amongst us who denounce all techniques, tools, and practices that cannot be found in literature from the previous centuries. If a tool or method wasn't good enough for Thomas Chippendale, it has no place in today's workshop.

You're missing the point -- none of this stuff is new. Reread the posts.

 

[Jacob]

......... The debate about the cap iron went on at woodcentral in 2012. ..............

Although it would have started about 250 years ago when it was probably first introduced according to some. I would have thought a lot earlier myself. No doubt it will carry on til the end of time.
It was revived more recently when the fashion for retro planes with single blades kicked off and people had to find out, all over again, why they weren't as good!

 

[Adam W.]

Blasphemy!!! You shall burn!!!

There are those amongst us who denounce all techniques, tools, and practices that cannot be found in literature from the previous centuries. If a tool or method wasn't good enough for Thomas Chippendale, it has no place in today's workshop.

Thomas Chippendale....Bah! Just frilly modern nonsense.

 

[Trafalgar]

Thomas Chippendale....Bah! Just frilly modern nonsense.

Chippendale's career was close to over before the first advertisement for the "new double iron plane." It's highly likely all he ever used were single-iron planes. I'm sure all his, and the shop's work, is just covered with horrifying tear out.

 

[raffo]

Yes, the cap iron seems to have been invented in the mid 18th century, according to an article in TATHS, or whatever it's called; according to them, an English invention too. Nobody is arguing that it was invented in 2012.

Why are you so angry that people discuss these topics? Why are even commenting here? You obviously don't care for the topic and seem satisafied with the ways you do things. No one is saying that single iron planes are rubbish, just that a double iron plane works better if the cap iron is setup.

The common wisdom in 2012 and still in 2019 (when I asked in a forum) on how to deal w tear out was high angle blades, tight mouths, card scrapers and sand paper, no one mentioned the cap iron. If you ask today, you'll still get similar answers. If you mention cap irons, you hear crickets. It's more sexy to buy a LN plane and all the different bed angle frogs.

In 2012, Larry insisted that single iron planes where the epitome of hand planes, because the heigth of furniture making ocurred in the 18th century, that anything after that was inferior. I think he also claimed cap irons were useless acessories. The previous statement is from memory, I may be mistaken. Clark and Williams is shutting down, they're retiring. Arguably, the best furniture was being built in China in the 13th century, later copied in Europe.

The debate is very interesting. Unfortunately, the WoodCentral forum went through a software transition and the old threads are very ackward to browse, but the posts are still there.

 

[Trafalgar]

Well, Larry made a great point about Chippendale and his contemporaries. Argue all you want, the execution of those pieces was pretty damned flawless and the vast majority of it, if not all of it, came off single-iron planes. "If they were good enough for Chippendale they're good enough for you" is a pretty strong argument.

I really can't tease out the 2012 and 2019 stuff. Those years have no special meaning for me, though I see they do you. I was not married in one of those years, none of my children were born in those years. I really don't care when in the 2000s people were discussing tools and techniques from the 18th and early 19th centuries. I read books by bona fide experts for my woodworking and furniture information. I come to forums to pull wings off flies.

Here you go, it's in 4 installments. Here's the first:

The ultimate problem with all of this is that you're essentially being asked, if not implored, to subordinate your judgement to barely intermediate woodworkers, and that classification in most cases is frankly being charitable. I want to hear from people with a mortgage payment sitting on the bench waiting to be completed -- in other words a little real world context. I don't want to hear from somebody cherry picking (literally) boards out of a pile in order to confirm some pet theory only so they can go argue it on their favorite forum. It's absurd on its face. Truly. "I've rediscovered the cap iron" makes about as much an impression on me as somebody "rediscovering" filling up the tub up with too much water and it overflowing when they get in. Eureka, Eureka, indeed.

 

[johnnyb]

planing seems a fairly innocuous activity to me. why does it hold such venom? I always think getting stuff straight and flat is just a thing you do before the interesting tricky stuff goes on. I always wish I could make my bits faster with greater joinery precision maybe. I do follow that hand planed surfaces are attractive. but a big drum sander would add more to my output (and precision)than a holtley.

Fred cogelow invented a skewed type of carving chisel.(I saw Ray illes showing one his brothers a full set at harrogate) with this he won many carving prizes and his work was great. but that is carving where getting a finish from the tool is usually the best way to preserve its crispness. that cogelow skews weren't popular hints that the extra effort to sharpen them wasn't considered a good use of tim
e.
just to reiterate what we're talking about it's altering the angle of the chipbreaker where it contacts the blade.

 

[Trafalgar]

It's been done to death Johnny -- the techniques and tools and the attempt to grasp some sort of internet fame for little piddly tweaks and bogus "discoveries" by folks who would take a month to build a dog house.

That's why.

 

[raffo]

The Director was published in 1754, right around the time the chipbreaker was invented. Would it be a stretch to infer it facilitated the manufacture of this furniture?

I think you're way off the mark in your assumptions. I have myself, with my very own hands, setup my planes and they do work to my satisfaction, I get very good surfaces. I don't know what I have surrendered when I have shown to myself that I have now tools the work well.

Do you use single iron planes in your work? Is there something wrong with using the cb? Be more specific in your critizism, otherwise you're just talking nonsense.

 

[Adam W.]

The Director was published in 1754, right around the time the chipbreaker was invented. Would it be a stretch to infer it facilitated the manufacture of this furniture?

Yes, it is doubtful that joiners all rushed out and bought new planes as soon as the chipbreaker was invented. I am confident that it would have taken quite a few years, decades even, for it to be fully accepted by professional woodworkers. After all planes would have been a fairly expensive purchase for the average woodworker in 1754.

 

[raffo]

The first chipbreakers were loose pieces, not screwed, presumably worn out irons. It was the latest and greatest, all the rage at the guild parties.

In all seriousness, not out of the realm of possibility. It yould take them 5 minutes to chisel out and retrofit a plane to fit a chipbreaker.

Of course, I wasn't there and neither were you.

 

[Adam W.]

You can speculate as much as you like, but don't discount the price of goods and the average wages of woodworkers in 1754. Let alone the average chaps natural instinct to hold on to what he had trained with.

 

[thetyreman]

could it possible that some of you are actually david disguised as other people?

 

[baldkev]

@Pabs , are you still alive?
You stumbled across one of the forbidden topics! Just to clarify, you cant post about:
Sharpening
Planing
Rising damp
Mft tops
Any form of engineering
Pasties / cream teas
Track saws
Impact drivers
Weetabix ( ok i made that one up )
Politics
Finance / economics


Failure to heed this advice leads to a forum wide slanging match and much animosity..... you can however talk about coffee machines, that seems fairly neutral. Ive got a sage bambino plus

Edit to add: keep it light guys, life's too short. Post your opinion and then stop, anyone who reads it can choose to give it a go, or not, we are all adults.

 

[raffo]

could it possible that some of you are actually david disguised as other people?

Jesús! what is this? relay race? Who is next, Jacob?

 

[Ttrees]

 

[Adam W.]

The first chipbreakers were loose pieces, not screwed, presumably worn out irons. It was the latest and greatest, all the rage at the guild parties.

In all seriousness, not out of the realm of possibility. It yould take them 5 minutes to chisel out and retrofit a plane to fit a chipbreaker.

Of course, I wasn't there and neither were you.

Anyway, tell us about the guild parties, they sound like they were fun.