Reality Check: Frame Saws Wood? bugbear?

[J_SAMa]

Hmm :-k Well firstly, let me clarify that by "frame saw" I mean the type tensioned with hemp cords, AKA "bowsaw". Not the blade-in-the-middle dedicated ripper.
The thing with getting advice from American gurus is that things do tend to get overcomplicated at times. Not criticizing them, don't get me wrong...
So these American sites keep saying that frame saws must be made out of hardwood, some even say hickory specifically or even say the stretcher and the uprights have to be different species, because of specific strength blah blah...
Now my experience tells me that those 'Muricans usually overdo things. Like when they all said benches had to be built out of hardwood and stones must use specialist "honing oil", glad I didn't listen and saved money on those 8) (especially the honing oils, probably just manufactures advertising). I'm sure many people here have made frame saws, bugbear's probably got a truckload of them stacked somewhere judging by his profile pic (hammer)? Please, if you've built frame saws out of softwoods like pine of spruce, share your experience .
Really I myself can't think of anything wrong with softwoods, I could just make it thicker if the stuff's not strong enough. Now come on, prove me wrong .

My motivation for making a frame saw is Frank Klausz Wanna find out what it's like to saw tenons and dovetails with a saw the length of a handsaw and the strength of a backsaw.

PS why are frame saws not as common anymore? If it really is, as I say, long as a handsaw and strong as a backsaw, why was it "replaced"?

Sam

 

[undergroundhunter]

I recently bought http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Mujingfang-Indonesian-Redwood-Frame-Saw-430mm-EF1_170025T.html from Matthew @ Workshop Heaven, its made from an unknown hardwood its fine for about the first 3" after that it wanders to the left badly, I have tried to remove some set which made no difference, I tried to over compensate with the angle of the blade but it still wanders to the left. Maybe its my technique and I need more practice . I bought it for ripping to width and resawing (too tight to buy a bandsaw and I don't have the room anyway) as I thought it would be easier than using a rip saw I think I still prefer my rip saws. Sorry to wander from your question but I do plan on making my own probably to Bugbears design, I have some american white ash kicking about that I think I will use.

Matt

 

[MIGNAL]

Pine or Spruce is a bit soft for something like a Bowsaw. Virtually any hardwood will do: Ash, Maple, Beech etc. I made mine from Lemonwood (turning saw) and it's been perfectly good in service.
I've recently made one in Khaya Mahogany using the Japanese blade from Fine Tools. It's a large framesaw (like the ECE) and it's proving difficult to guide the cut. I'm tempted to half the blade length and use it as a Tenon type saw.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I used elm for the one I made. The M&Ts need to be quite well fitting to stop it twisting, which might be a problem with softwood. Unless you make it really chunky the stresses needed to get a decent blade tension may be too much for softwood too ?

 

[MIGNAL]

You can actually use very short tenons. Don't forget that you don't want the tenons so tight that they work against the action of the windlass.
This one looks a little fancy:

http://hyvelbenk.wordpress.com/2014/01/ ... cription-2

 

[AndyT]

By coincidence, I've just been rewatching a brilliant documentary about the last hand tool makers in Geneva. There was a thread about this video here:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/how-to-make-a-french-plane-with-video-t59943.html

or you can go straight to the video with this link
http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/culture/suisse-au-fil-du-temps/3464421-les-outils-de-bois.html.

Anyway, in the film, near the end, Eric Raggenbass, aged 80, shows how to make a 'scie montée'. He turns handles from what looks like ash, but the central stretcher looks like lightweight softwood, so the overall weight and balance are right. This is no problem with central mortices, as the design uses a simpler joint, like a bridle joint.

He shows how you need a range of different lengths and breadths of blade. Also, how to hold it properly, why the handles are different sizes and why metal screw adjusters are not as good as proper twine!

 

[matthewwh]

Matt,

Try increasing the tension, you won't get all the way up to a 'ping' but you want a nice 'twang'.

 

[J_SAMa]

I guess the general consensus here is, too, that softwood won't work. So which one of these is the most stable in your opinion:
Ash
Hard Maple
Sapele
Cherry
Oak
These are the ones I can get my hands on. I hope I can use oak because it's cheap...

 

[matthewwh]

Any of them would work.

Ash might not be the prettiest but it probably has the best strength to weight ratio.

 

[undergroundhunter]

Matt,

Try increasing the tension, you won't get all the way up to a 'ping' but you want a nice 'twang'.

Thanks Matthew, I did tighten it a bit when I got it, like I said maybe I just need longer to play with it and find its sweet spot.

Matt

 

[tobytools]

This wood also works.
http://www.ktproductions.co.uk/blog/?page_id=27


I might make one and if I did u would probally use what I had about..

TT

 

[Racers]

Maple can also be used, this is my coping saw bladed bow saw.



Pete

 

[J_SAMa]

Actually i think it might be better to buy one first... So that I at least get my techniques right first and know won't blame the saw for poor performance when I make one.

 

[Trafalgar]

Right in your own backyard:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-14-Beech- ... 2ecddce8e1

And a smaller Marples:

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/service-offer/i ... 2714121988

 

[tobytools]

Maple can also be used, this is my coping saw bladed bow saw.



Pete

You make some of the most beautiful tools Pete. I really love the flowing motion, splendid work.

And a good project to get the spokeshaves and fret saw out.
TT

 

[MIGNAL]

Lovely design and probably suitable for a thin coping saw type blade. For much deeper blades I think I'd be tempted to maintain long grain wherever possible. Straight rift/quarter sawn whenever possible.

 

[sdjp]

For a coping saw sized blade, softwood is perfectly 'adequete'.

I have a constructive proof of this, in the form of probably the ugliest tool you'll ever see:

It's all softwood; except for the string and the blade. I think the stretcher is fir, and the rest a pine - it was all out the firewood pile, as a bit of an experiment. As a consequence the wood is effectively quartersawn, and defect free. (Not that it was sawn, axe, plane and chisels against the log).

That's actually a WIP picture, where I was fitting a longer stretcher; since then I've shaped the handle a bit more, and replaced the toggle with a thinner one. The handle has a through tenon, and you can see the slot in it for the blade pins to sit in.

You might well want a different wood in order to make various bits thinner and ... I'd say 'more elegant', but that would imply that thing had any elegance to it. None the less, it works, and the cord I'm using gives up long before the wood shows the slightest sign of problems (that might be down to insufficiently strong cord - although I can tension the blade just as much as my metal frame coping saw, so I'm not worries on that score).

For a longer blade, and therefore a commensurately higher tension, I don't know if the points where the blade is mounted will cope. Assuming that this is not an issue (either they do, or brass pins are used), then I wouldn't forsee a problem with the strecher being a softwood. It's in near pure long grain compression, and that's a strongest mode of operation for any wood. The handles would be non-structural (although surface finish matters there), leaving only the toggle and the verticals under question. I've actually made a hardwood (birch, also from the firewood pile) toggle, purely to have it thinner for that saw, so would do the same for a larger version; but I think that the verticals would probably work at the higher tension, if straight grained. It would mean no fancy shapes, but, as I'm sure you can gather, that's ... less ... of a concern for me. A curve does have engineering advantaged, in terms of less wear caused by shear stresses, so I would expect a softwood version with straighter lines to not last as long - but that's all relative, I can't measure that.

I'm looking out for a turning saw blade, just so I can try that out (and then built one in hardwood, if/when it doesn't work).

 

[pedder]

PS why are frame saws not as common anymore? If it really is, as I say, long as a handsaw and strong as a backsaw, why was it "replaced"?

Sam

Hi Sam,

sorry for bein late. Sawing with a bow saw is more difficult for me. The centre of gravity is quite fare above the blade and therefor you need some stregth in the hand and lower arm to get a good cut. Even more because the Bow is turned to an angle of 10-20° to have a full view to the blade.

The last point: Most bow saws come untuned and unsharpened. Japanese saws are cheaper annd sharp (and have a different draw back.)

Cheers
Pedder

 

[tobytools]

For a coping saw sized blade, softwood is perfectly 'adequete'.

love this saw, =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

TT