Raised Panels Using Groovers Or Wobble Saw

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pollys13

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Hi all,
I have an Axminster 3.75hp tilting spindle +5 ° to - 45°
I understand I can use a Stacked cutter groover set, "Dial a height" variable groover, or Single height groover/s for panel raising. What would the procedure be using each of these to raise panels on house doors? Where could I get replaceable tips from?
Cheers,
Peter.
 
Peter, you can get replaceable tips from whoever supplied the tooling.

Personally I wouldn't use a wobble saw for this as the cut will likely be a bit too ragged for an exposed surface, they're better for applications like grooving where you never actually see the machined surface. In any event you want to go careful, in particular avoid a cut where there's a "falling piece" i.e. a piece of solid waste material that gets cut away as opposed to getting sucked up by the extractor in the form of sawdust, spindle moulders and falling pieces don't make happy companions! Dedicated panel raising tooling, used in a non tilted position, just works a lot better.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I get the impression you're quite new to this, if so I'd urge you to consider some spindle training (Peter Sefton for example runs a highly regarded short machining course) as there are many, many little complexities with spindle moulders that aren't commonly known but are critical for safe use. I'll just talk about one, when you use a wide spindle tool in a tilted position there are significant clearance issues that need to be fully understood, can you use the drop in rings to close up the gap, or will they foul at the back? Should you make the cut on the top of the workpiece or on the bottom? Would you be better raising the workpiece on a sled? Will you need a false fence and will it be possible to cut a zero clearance gap in the normal way by pushing the fence back into the rotating cutter (unlikely)? How will you guard above the exposed cutter? It's by no means straightforward and you really don't want to make any mistakes.

Good luck!
 
Hi,
I'm familiar with the various panel raising cutters. I've downloaded the HSE information sheets and other items they have regarding the safe use of the spindle moulder, false fences, etc as does Roy Suttons DVD. I've downloaded shaper and spindle YouTube videos, though most tend to be orientated to massive Felder,SCM industrial type stuff.

I have a copy of the, Spindle Moulder Handbook by Eric Stephenson, The Shaper Handbook, The Shaper Book.I also have the Basic Spindle Moulding DVD by Roy Sutton and Wood Stores, Jet instructional shaper video. Tuition provided by Phil Lowe.

" Phil Lowe of the Furniture Institute of Massachusetts introduces viewers to the function and operation of the shaper. Learn to mount cutters, create moldings and decorative edges, raise panels, duplicate parts, and more with an emphasis on safe machine operation. Phil offers lots of tips along the way."

I also read the posts on spindle moulders, tooling, the same with wood shapers and made a short list of people who know what they are talking. So if I'm unsure of anything, need advice I can ask them for their assistance.

I'm a former member of The British Woodcarvers Association and the Bowood Carving And Woodworking Club.
A current member of Chris Pyes Online Carving school and of Mary Mays Online School Of Traditional Woodcarving. I also own an Axminster Hobby Woodturning lathe.
I asked about the groovers as I thought it would be a less expensive way of raising door panels, than buying dedicated panel raising tooling.
Peter.
 
pollys13":kmnmu25c said:
Hi,
I'm familiar with the various panel raising cutters. I've downloaded the HSE information sheets and other items they have regarding the safe use of the spindle moulder, false fences, etc as does Roy Suttons DVD. I've downloaded shaper and spindle YouTube videos, though most tend to be orientated to massive Felder,SCM industrial type stuff.
I did all that. However your assumption that the safe way of working and techniques for larger Felder machines is not relevant to smaller spindle moulders frightens me.

pollys13":kmnmu25c said:
I have a copy of the, Spindle Moulder Handbook by Eric Stephenson, The Shaper Handbook, The Shaper Book.I also have the Basic Spindle Moulding DVD by Roy Sutton and Wood Stores, Jet instructional shaper video. Tuition provided by Phil Lowe.
Yup...did all that as well.

pollys13":kmnmu25c said:
I also read the posts on spindle moulders, tooling, the same with wood shapers and made a short list of people who know what they are talking.
So did I.

pollys13":kmnmu25c said:
So if I'm unsure of anything, need advice I can ask them for their assistance.
As in 'How do I re-attach my hand' ?

pollys13":kmnmu25c said:
I'm a former member of The British Woodcarvers Association and the Bowood Carving And Woodworking Club.
A current member of Chris Pyes Online Carving school and of Mary Mays Online School Of Traditional Woodcarving. I also own an Axminster Hobby Woodturning lathe.
I don't really see the relevance TBH.

So I did all of the above like you. And I thought that I knew it all.

Until the cutter on my Kity ripped the packing piece out from under the clamp and fired it out the back of the cutter shroud, through the extraction hose and buried it 3 inches into the plaster wall.

After I had changed my trousers, I booked a course with Peter Sefton and learnt more in those few days then a lifetime of reading books and watching YouTube but most importantly gave me 'advanced hands on' experience in a safe environment.

Still, they're your hands. Good luck.
 
pollys13":2u1yu369 said:
Hi all,
I have an Axminster 3.75hp tilting spindle +5 ° to - 45°
I understand I can use a Stacked cutter groover set, "Dial a height" variable groover, or Single height groover/s for panel raising. What would the procedure be using each of these to raise panels on house doors? Where could I get replaceable tips from?
Cheers,
Peter.
I wouldn't use any of these.
Last time I did raised panels I did it over the TS with a finishing pass from a hand plane. A lot of setting up for the saw but then very quick and easy. No special tools required.
If you have a tilting spindle can't you just use a rebate block?
 
pollys13":2053cakc said:
Hi,
I'm familiar with the various panel raising cutters. I've downloaded the HSE information sheets and other items they have regarding the safe use of the spindle moulder, false fences, etc as does Roy Suttons DVD. I've downloaded shaper and spindle YouTube videos, though most tend to be orientated to massive Felder,SCM industrial type stuff.

I have a copy of the, Spindle Moulder Handbook by Eric Stephenson, The Shaper Handbook, The Shaper Book.I also have the Basic Spindle Moulding DVD by Roy Sutton and Wood Stores, Jet instructional shaper video. Tuition provided by Phil Lowe.

" Phil Lowe of the Furniture Institute of Massachusetts introduces viewers to the function and operation of the shaper. Learn to mount cutters, create moldings and decorative edges, raise panels, duplicate parts, and more with an emphasis on safe machine operation. Phil offers lots of tips along the way."

I also read the posts on spindle moulders, tooling, the same with wood shapers and made a short list of people who know what they are talking. So if I'm unsure of anything, need advice I can ask them for their assistance.

I'm a former member of The British Woodcarvers Association and the Bowood Carving And Woodworking Club.
A current member of Chris Pyes Online Carving school and of Mary Mays Online School Of Traditional Woodcarving. I also own an Axminster Hobby Woodturning lathe.
I asked about the groovers as I thought it would be a less expensive way of raising door panels, than buying dedicated panel raising tooling.
Peter.
Your response gives the very real impression of throwing useful, well aimed advice by someone who knows what he's talking about straight back at him.

That may well not be what you intended and if it isn't may I suggest you make an edit to your reaponse?

If that was the intent then you're going to need the good luck and a lot more besides.

PS - I've got some of the old Roberstson's plaster golliwogs. Does that mean I can make marmalade?
 
You're right, you could raise a panel with a grooving cutter. But there's plenty of reasons why you wouldn't.

Firstly the panel that's produced isn't the best. I'll illustrate the point with a sketch.

Panel-1.jpg


The top panel is what's produced with a dedicated panel raising cutter. As you can see there's a relatively large, flat area that engages with the groove in the rails and stiles. The bottom panel is what you'll get by using a grooving cutter. Given that you want the panel to be a snug fit you can see that with a grooving cutter it has to be very precisely sized, too thin and it's a sloppy fit which will rattle every time the door's opened or closed, too fat and it will force the rails and stiles apart preventing you from getting good tight mortice and tenon joints.

Secondly the work itself is a bit dodgy, there's a big gap in the fence with all that large diameter tooling and possibly a big gap in the bed of the spindle moulder around the spindle shaft. Either of these is an invitation for the workpiece to get sucked in, chewed up, and spat back out in your direction as splinters. Also, I previously mentioned the risk of the "falling piece", which means (depending on the dimensions of your grooving cutter) you'll probably need multiple incremental passes.

Thirdly, how many doors are you making? The reason I ask is that I'd allow an hour's set up time for this job, but I've been around spindle moulders for forty years, if you're new to it you may well spend a day on the set up alone and need multiple test pieces before you're good to go. For a start you'll need a sled (yes, you could make the cuts on the underside of the workpiece, but I wouldn't because you're just asking for variations in workpiece thickness and the panel is inherently less stable on the bed done that way), the sled will need a piece of timber fastening on perpendicular to the fence to serve as a break out guard, and then you'll need a couple of toggle cramps fastened onto this to hold the workpiece. I could spend twenty minutes just talking about safe and unsafe practises in attaching toggle cramps...but life's too short! The sled must be long enough to span the opening in the fence, ideally clearing the fence gap both before the cutter engages and after it completes the cut. You'll also need a false fence, but you can't just push that back into the spinning cutter to make a zero clearance fit, as a tilted cutter won't cut through the fence (if you can't envisage why not then take it from me, you're not ready to do this procedure), so there's another half an hour with a jig saw right there.

The list goes on and on.

Doing this right is not a quick and simple job. It's possible, but it needs a lot of thinking through. Spindle moulders aren't like other woodworking machinery in two key respects, firstly the tooling and accessories nearly always cost more than the machine itself, and secondly each new piece of tooling transforms it into effectively a new and different machine with its own set of safety requirements and operating procedures.

Invest in face to face training, it's the only sensible way to operate a spindle moulder.
 

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Here is how I would do it, and I'm not advocating that it's the best method or most appropriate.

I would use a Whithill panel raising block and cutter, including the limiters. (If you don't need it afterwards you will get c85%of the price back on an auction site for the block). False fence in place raise the panel head up and cut out the relief with Shaw guards etc in place.

The panel will have been thicknessed to the right size, so it's flat and accurate. With Shaw guards make a wall around your cutters so that fingers can't get anywhere near. Alternatively and more safely use a power feed.

I feed the panel through with it being referenced off the spindle bed, and the hold down pressure set so that it will be on an area that won't get cut, this ensures that the panel won't tilt down into the cutters. Take a light cut of the shortest side, flip over the panel and repeat measure the thickness of the shoulder and adjust the spindle height accordingly. Unless it will sit in a groove it's not that critical, nearest 1mm is close enough.

Run the shortest end through, then the rotate clockwise 90 degrees and repeat until all of one side is complete. Turn over and repeat until complete. Normally it takes me about 10mins to setup and not much more to complete 4 or 6 panels.

Use push sticks even though you have Shaw guards in place, and don't let any hand go near to or the out feed side of the cutter whilst processing. Smooth and even feeding leads to a good finish. Too slow and the wood will be burnt.

I always find a solution that allows me to cut from beneath. I also only ever use a power feed.
 
custard":3e0mxmu2 said:
You're right, you could raise a panel with a grooving cutter. But there's plenty of reasons why you wouldn't.

Firstly the panel that's produced isn't the best. I'll illustrate the point with a sketch.



The top panel is what's produced with a dedicated panel raising cutter. As you can see there's a relatively large, flat area that engages with the groove in the rails and stiles. The bottom panel is what you'll get by using a grooving cutter. Given that you want the panel to be a snug fit you can see that with a grooving cutter it has to be very precisely sized, too thin and it's a sloppy fit which will rattle every time the door's opened or closed, too fat and it will force the rails and stiles apart preventing you from getting good tight mortice and tenon joints........
I've done lots like that bottom panel, with just a plain bevel and no flat.
That's how they are most often done in old joinery/furniture and they don't rattle.
They are made a light push fit into the slot, with clearance on the long grain side for movement. When put together there's always enough error somewhere, or bit of movement, to stop them rattling. They only need to be a tight fit in one or two spots and that's enough to do it.
If in doubt a spot of glue in the slot, central to the end grain edge of the panel, should keep them in place. NOT on the long grain edge.
NB you can't glue any more than that as there has to be movement or you get splits etc.

PS but yes I wouldn't use a groove cutter - they are for grooves.

custard":3e0mxmu2 said:
... Spindle moulders aren't like other woodworking machinery in two key respects, firstly the tooling and accessories nearly always cost more than the machine itself, ....
Unless you grind your own then spindle tooling is cheaper than a router by far, and enormously more versatile and productive.
 
deema":1p0ua2x7 said:
I always find a solution that allows me to cut from beneath. I also only ever use a power feed.

I guess that's another reason why face to face training is important.

I'd follow a similar procedure so I'm not knocking the method, but you know from experience that when machining the underside of the workpiece in conjunction with a power feed you need to be careful cutting the final edge; the power feed is pressing down but as the initial corner contacts the power feed wheel it's unsupported underneath, so can flip the workpiece up if you don't apply counter pressure at the back end.

That's a fine example of the type of thing you don't want to discover when you're on your own operating a spindle moulder for the first time!
 
custard":3jmot1fs said:
.... but you know from experience that when machining the underside of the workpiece in conjunction with a power feed you need to be careful cutting the final edge; the power feed is pressing down but as the initial corner contacts the power feed wheel it's unsupported underneath, so can flip the workpiece up if you don't apply counter pressure at the back end. ....
Can't quite visualise this problem and have never experienced it. But it shouldn't be possible if you've set the thing up properly in the first place.
 
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