R.Groves & Sons Tenon Saw WIP FINISHED

[DannyEssex]

Hi all

Yesterday I purchased this saw from the local car boot for the pricey sum of a whole pound! I liked the look and feel of it and have read about this maker on here a few times, so decided I will try and clean it up and make it a user.

It was in quite a state but there was no pitting on the plate so wasn't to hard to clean up. The etched logo was long gone before I cleaned it up which is a shame. You can just about see it.

I started on the handle. It was quite grubby and had a fair bit of paint. I thought it would be easier to strip the saw down so did. I read some of Andy T's old posts about cleaning old tools old-tool-cleaning-part-3-paint-removal-with-turps-t64290.html?hilit=part%201 And used some Boiled Linseed Oil with a rag to clean the handle. I only wanted to get the dirt and paint off, and was happy with how it came out,

After Cleaning on the Left

I then set about cleaning the plate, After a few hours of elbow grease I went through 400,600,800, and 1000 grit wet and dry. I then polished it with some autosol.

Then the Brass back, same as the plate.

The teeth need re-cutting, so I filed the remains of the teeth off and levelled the plate off as best as I could.

I have never tried this before, so I will practice on some other old boot sale saws that I brought to practice on. I think* I will file it 14 TPI, so will get a couple of 5 XX slim files from Workshop Heaven in the next few days. I'm in two minds weather to get the file holder from Veritas, or try with the small blocks of wood to set the various angles. Not sure just yet. I have watched Andys 2 hr video on youtube twice now and think I need to watch it again :lol:


This is my first try at any kind of restoration so any tips would be great.
Heres a couple of before pics :lol:

 

[AndyT]

Good start - it's on the way from being a bit of unconsidered junk to being an attractive saw that you will want to pick up and use. You just have the hard part to do now!

If I were you I would file it rip, not crosscut - which is what you want if cutting tenons or dovetails, and easier to do.

To get the spacing right you can print off a paper pattern and stick it on the saw - I did that ok on a much bigger saw once.

Or another method, which I've not got round to trying, is to use a hacksaw blade as a guide to where the new gullets go. You get a 28 tpi blade, stick it to the saw with double sided tape, and file a mark every two teeth. Your file saw won't cut the hacksaw, so it could work as a depth limiter too, but the hard hacksaw will ruin the file if you touch it too much, so it's probably best to use it just to get the horizontal interval even, then take it off and complete filing down by eye.

 

[DannyEssex]

Thanks Andy,

I was thinking of trying a hacksaw blade, also Bugbear sent me a link of his with some templates to print off. I have a few saws to play with, so will practice a bit before I touch this saw

 

[Racers]

Hi Danny

I did a complete retooth of a tenon saw using one of BB templates.
I started by doing only one pass with the file for each tooth then I repeated the whole process gradually deepening the cut, this makes it easer to even up the teeth, as you can see the size of the flat between each tooth and adjust the pressure on the file to even it up.

It took about 8-10 passes to cut them to the full depth.

Pete

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I also used the templates to re-tooth a tenon saw, but just marked each gullet position with a nick made with a junior hacksaw (a bluntish one seemed to work well), so that I could then take away the paper for a clearer view.

That's going to be a nice saw when you're done.

 

[bugbear]

Hi Danny

I did a complete retooth of a tenon saw using one of BB templates.
I started by doing only one pass with the file for each tooth then I repeated the whole process gradually deepening the cut, this makes it easer to even up the teeth, as you can see the size of the flat between each tooth and adjust the pressure on the file to even it up.

It took about 8-10 passes to cut them to the full depth.

Pete

Following this process, you could probably do the first 2 to 4 passes as pure rip (no fleam) all from the same side, which will be a little quicker and easier to do.

BugBear

 

[Racers]

Hi BB

That is indeed what I did.

Pete

 

[Richard T]

A brave thing to do. I shall be watching with interest ... from a safe distance.

 

[carlb40]

Well done Danny and i too will be following with interest.

 

[DannyEssex]

I messed about with a practice saw this morning, using a hacksaw blade as the template. It seem ok, not as daunting as I was expecting it to be. Bugbear kindly sent me some images to print off, so will try that out. I have just won a saw vice on ebay and will picking that up Thursday, then I will order some new files from WH.

I have a question about starting the first file cut. Am i best to start in the middle of the template teeth?

And jointing

does the saw plate HAVE to be perfectly flat, ie no daylight whatsoever if held up to a square face?

 

[bugbear]

I messed about with a practice saw this morning, using a hacksaw blade as the template. It seem ok, not as daunting as I was expecting it to be. Bugbear kindly sent me some images to print off, so will try that out. I have just won a saw vice on ebay and will picking that up Thursday, then I will order some new files from WH.

I have a question about starting the first file cut. Am i best to start in the middle of the template teeth?

And jointing

does the saw plate HAVE to be perfectly flat, ie no daylight whatsoever if held up to a square face?

BTW - the templates are designed to be folded over the blade. If you just stuck 'em to one face, they'd come off.

Nah - you can't joint teeth perfectly, so why joint the plate perfectly?

BugBear

 

[Racers]

Mmmm I stuck mine to the saw plate with Pritstick.

Danny
I aimed for the middle of the tooth when I did mine.

Pete

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Danny - that's a lovely little saw - well worth the effort of refurbishing.

Couple of tips on filing. Firstly, file slowly. Trying to file steel as hard as sawplate fast will just cause the file to skate across the metal, and not cut efficiently. A 6" file should take almost a full second to make a full-length stroke. Second, good light makes a big difference - full daylight if you can arrange to do the job then, or LOTS of artificial light if you can't. Third - patience, patience. Really take your time, and see what the effect of each file stroke is, so you can correct the filing pressure (straight down or slightly left or right) before you take too much metal off. You'll speed up with practice. Fourthly, using an engineer's three-square (triangular) file to establish the notches and take them to about half depth will save wear on your sawfiles, but don't overdo it - you want the nice curved base to the gullets that a sawfile gives you, not the sharper notch from a three-square.

You're right though. It's not as daunting as you think. Just needs a bit of patience, good light, a methodical approach and a steady hand.

 

[DannyEssex]

Just picked up the saw vice, and have ordered a new file from WH. I will update you all when I make a start

 

[bugbear]

Just picked up the saw vice, and have ordered a new file from WH. I will update you all when I make a start

You might want to find a way to use a "real" clamp (or two) to fix your vise in place. Rock solid stability is VERY helpful when filing, and a single thumbscrew type clamp won't provide it.

Mine screws to a board, which I hold in the bench vise. I discovered by chance that changing the board from 3/4" pine to 1" oak made the filing easier.

BugBear

 

[DannyEssex]

Cheers BB, I'v not had the chance to try it yet, just clamped a saw in for the pic. I will find a way to secure it more.



Thanks to everyone else also for the help and advice :wink:

 

[G S Haydon]

A handsome saw Danny. I recently sharpened a cheap S&J DT saw, it's cuts much better than it did but still much more practice required. I look forward to seeing this progress.

 

[Grahamshed]

Thats a good looking job you are doing there.
I have a similar saw that belonged to my father, probably 80 or more years old. It has a slight wobble in the handle which I must attend to but cuts well.

 

[DannyEssex]

Just hit a bit of a snag. Thought I would put the groves saw in the saw clamp and it wont fit

there is not enough plate clear to cut the new teeth. The brass back is hitting the clamp nut. So im either going to have to take the brass back off, which I dont really want to do. Or not use the clamp and use a length of battern with a kerf cut into it :?

 

[AndyT]

I vote for option 2 or else a very simple clamp such as used in the Lie Nielsen saw sharpening videos and discussed on here recently. Two battens to hold the saw, attached to two boards, held in the vice.