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flanajb

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These public sector workers make my blood boil. How the hell can they think that it is fine to have a different retirement age to those in the private sector, and why do they also think they have the right to a gold plated pension on retirement.

If I was the PM I would tell them all to like it or lump it. The country is broke, people are living longer and we all need to accept that we will have to contribute more to the coffers of the treasury.

That's my rant over with for today. Thanks for listening
 

Karl

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My better half is having to take a days unpaid leave tomorrow to look after the kids because their school is closed.

Cheers, teachers.
 

Dodge

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Hmmm - approximately 2million public sector workers striking tomorrow - There are also approximately 2 million unemployed - You know what I'm thinking! (hammer) (hammer)
 

Chems

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I think its more a case of I signed up for this on Terms A, and now your changing it to Terms B. Anybody would be peeved with that, regardless of what it was relating too.
 

DIY Stew

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I'm a retired fireman (Ill health retirement after 24 years service) and I am in total agreement with all public sector workers striking tomorrow.

If you sign up for a pension then what you should get is what you signed up for, if that means you retire at 55 then you retire at 55, I am unsure what you mean by a 'gold plated pension'.

As for all those people who are having to take unpaid leave because teachers are on strike, how many complained when they were given a days holiday to watch the Royal wedding, I suspect very few.

2 million unemployed and 2 million public sector workers on strike, before I became a fireman I worked in a hospital laundry where I had to sort very badly soiled clothing and bedding, not a very nice job but I had been unemployed for 53 weeks so I was happy to do any work, so tell me how many people do you know who would happily do a job like that for a pittance.

I saw on the news that tomorrows strike will cost the country half billion pounds, may I remind you, the ruling classes decide we can have the day off for a Royal wedding it doesn't damage the economy, but when the workers decide to strike it costs millions!

If you are commisioned to make a piece of furniture you agree a price, what if when its made the customer decides he wont pay what was agreed but will indeed pay you considerably less, not fair is it.

Stew
 

doctor Bob

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I don't know a single person apart from other public sector workers who supports the strike.
The tide has turned against strikers whether they are public sector workers or the tube /TFL etc etc.
Striking is deemed as militant and in my opinion in these desperate times it does very little apart from destroying the company you are employed by or as in the case of public service workers "detached from the working masses".

Employment contracts are changed all the time in the normal workplace.
 

Jacob

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Why should we support our workers on November 30th?
Remember when teachers, policemen, police staff, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firefighters crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?
No, me neither.
 

blurk99

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public sector workers (me for example) don't

"think they have the right to a gold plated pension on retirement"

when a senior nurse retires today, aged 60, after 40 years employment in the NHS he or she will recieve a pension of (approx) £18,000 (assuming the nurse was near the top of 'Agenda4Change Band 6' pay scale ~ most are on band 5 and will receive less), that same nurse will not receive the 'state pension' entitlement (currently £97 ish per week, £5000 per year) until age 65, so they retire on approx £13,000 having paid 7% of their salary for 40 years into a pension fund and full NI contributions (another 6% currently)

and here seems to be the problem... if they are "retired" they ought to get the state pension portion of their pension paid out at the same time, that's what they were 'sold' when they opted to start the NHS scheme 40 years ago, and yet that's not happening, and there's no concrete date of when that state portion will start paying out, maybe they'll have to wait until 67 before it happens, maybe it will have extended further... staff currently in the scheme are being told they all have to pay more into the scheme, to even out the contribution rates *but*... firemen / police / mental health all pay more (8-12%) because they have a lower retirement age (typically 55 due to the stresses and demands of their individual fields), and yet 'normal' NHS / Teachers / Council office staff etc. etc. etc. are being expected to pay the same increased proportion, but their retirement age is actually going up (by 7 years currently) unsurprisingly that is seen as unfair, again we were 'sold' a scheme that is now being changed without negotiation

successive governments have failed to grasp that there is a reason why people opt to work in the public sector;

1. there is a degree of job security that private business can't provide
2. the rate of pension *is* better for what you have to pay in as a percentage of your salary than a private scheme could provide

the trade off is that the level of pay to start with is poorer than private business would pay for someone with equivalent qualifications by experience (typically that retiring nurse would be expected to have Masters Degree level qualifications, nursing is now degree level entry)

am i striking tomorrow? No, there is also a duty of care in the NHS that i'm professionally obliged to make sure that i help provide the best level of care possible, i can't do that for the 12,000 patients i'm responsible for if i'm stood on a freezing street corner holding a Unison placard

i don't think any less of my colleagues who are making their own point in their own way, but i do not consider strike action to be the obvious choice right now, there doesn't seem to have been much negotiation so far, there seems to be a group of union convenors who are longing for the 'glory days' of the 70's and early 80's and my personal opinion is that they aren't prepared to genuinely enter negotiations

anyway, i'm off to work tomorrow, at least it should be easier to get a car parking space eh??

cheers

jim
 

cambournepete

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Chems":3v9727zy said:
I think its more a case of I signed up for this on Terms A, and now your changing it to Terms B. Anybody would be peeved with that, regardless of what it was relating too.
My company pension is changing with me having to pay an extra 4% towards it.
If I went on strike I'd probably lose my job.
I'm sure my company is not the only one and that there are many people in a worse situation than me.
So no sympathy from me. Sorry.

At least the teachers at my son's school aren't striking this time.
 

Modernist

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Since the start of the scheme the teachers pension scheme has taken £40bn more in contributions than it has paid out. Do you imagine the average 67 year old is up to teaching a class of toddlers, particularly when they expected to retire at 60?

Setting aside that agreements are not being honoured for those already in the scheme it is yet another case of easy pickings while unnecessary expenditure and waste take place elsewhere on a massive scale. Many of the cuts will actually increase costs in the medium and long term, not to mention the hardship to those in greatest need.

Given that we are now, outrageously, no more than an irrelevant irritation in Europe then our place in the world certainly does not justify wasting billions on ill conceived military excursions around the world. Our economy is based primarily around service industries which are unnecessary compared to the merits of manufacturing and wealth generation.

Interesting that the present party in power is directly responsible for the policies which lead to these problems and has now decided on a U turn. It's chances of rebuilding manufacturing are nil, they haven't the wit. Meanwhile Gove will have our kids studying the history how Britain became great 100's of years ago.

The answer is staring them in the face but they are too blinded by bigotry to see it. High investment in manufacturing, free technical education, high skills training, high wages and excellent conditions of employment and a focus on design and marketing. This is combined with lower gap between rich and poor, effective social services and a sense of social cohesion and responsibility, precisely the converse of Tory policy over the years. It probably does mean higher taxes but I doubt many Germans or Scandinavians would swap for what we have.
 

flanajb

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Jacob":1q06x3yj said:
Why should we support our workers on November 30th?
Remember when teachers, policemen, police staff, ambulance staff, nurses, midwives, doctors and firefighters crashed the stock market, wiped out banks, took billions in bonuses and paid no tax?
No, me neither.
That is rather flawed. I work in banking and along with all my colleagues pay 40% tax. In fact the city contributes 30% of gdp to the treasury. The newspapers make out that everyone working in banking was paid millions.

As to people complaining about pensions changes are not what they signed up for. I think you will find that a great many private sector workers have had their pension terms changed since they joined their company, but they don't have the luxury of striking.

In my eyes, the public and private sector should be the same. If you don't like the changes being implemented, tough, go get another job
 

bugbear

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flanajb":23vh6dc3 said:
These public sector workers make my blood boil. How the hell can they think that it is fine to have a different retirement age to those in the private sector, and why do they also think they have the right to a gold plated pension on retirement.
Do please feel free to state what their pension is - most low paid PS workers have measly pensions. "Gold Plated" is a rhetorical phrase used by the Daily Mail and the Govt. It's easier to attack "gold plated" pensions than to actually argue the real numbers.

BugBear
 

Jacob

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flanajb":2lsbp5r5 said:
.... I think you will find that a great many private sector workers have had their pension terms changed since they joined their company, but they don't have the luxury of striking.
Yes they do - but it's not a luxury.
 

Max Power

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Dont they realise the gravy train has come off the rails :roll: the money has run out , welcome to the real world
 

Modernist

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flanajb":2mq4ym0x said:
That is rather flawed. I work in banking and along with all my colleagues pay 40% tax. In fact the city contributes 30% of gdp to the treasury. The newspapers make out that everyone working in banking was paid millions.
They pay 60% tax in Denmark but I haven't notice a stream of Danish economic refugees arriving here. Most PS pensions are quite modest which makes it all the more essential to defend them.

That'll be the same city which has lead the country into destitution then? +A-B =<0

As to people complaining about pensions changes are not what they signed up for. I think you will find that a great many private sector workers have had their pension terms changed since they joined their company, but they don't have the luxury of striking.
I don't think many consider striking a luxury.
 

flanajb

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Modernist":eh7wexch said:
flanajb":eh7wexch said:
That is rather flawed. I work in banking and along with all my colleagues pay 40% tax. In fact the city contributes 30% of gdp to the treasury. The newspapers make out that everyone working in banking was paid millions.
They pay 60% tax in Denmark but I haven't notice a stream of Danish economic refugees arriving here. Most PS pensions are quite modest which makes it all the more essential to defend them.

That'll be the same city which has lead the country into destitution then? +A-B =<0

As to people complaining about pensions changes are not what they signed up for. I think you will find that a great many private sector workers have had their pension terms changed since they joined their company, but they don't have the luxury of striking.
I don't think many consider striking a luxury.
We won't see eye to eye on this, but I agree the city screwed up, but did anyone complain when the city was contributing billions to the treasury during the boom years. No!

The issue is still there, the country is broke and the government needs to find ways of reducing the deficit. I would be more than happy to pay an extra 5p on the pound income tax so long as the pain was experienced by all.

At the same time, I would also kick all those lazy illegitimate welfare scroungers up the buttocks and make them work in the community. And benefits for people with children would be limited to a maximum of 2. That way, people could not abuse the system by having child after child.
 

Jacob

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flanajb":1h9l583y said:
........
We won't see eye to eye on this, but I agree the city screwed up, but did anyone complain when the city was contributing billions to the treasury during the boom years. No!
Oh yes we did - we pointed out over and over again that it was a bubble. Books were written on the subject. This is well trodden ground. Very many people were horrified that our whole economy and our personal futures were in the hands of reckless speculators.
 

Modernist

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It actually pre-dates that. Many of us objected violently to the Thatcher wholesale destruction of not only sections of industry but the sense of community. It was so obvious it was impossible to miss.

As ever the tories were so devoid of ideas of their own that they slavishly followed the Keith Joseph/Thatcher ravings.

Not much has changed. Prior to the last election I was invited to a meeting with Hague when they were seeking ideas for the future, no doubt sold as vox pop, but they were clearly without any underlying philosophy of their own hence the current ineffective easy target cutting.

Surely even they must see the irony of heralding a return to manufacturing, no doubt with full employment and riches for all. NOT
 

beech1948

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Modernist,

Odd ain't it. My view of Thatchers era was that she provided the following for us:-
1) Cut back the greedy Government
2) Cut back the injurous Trade Unions who were ( and still are) creating negative wealth for the country
3) Drove us out of ruinous dependency on old fashioned forms of industry
4) Created the pattern for the next 20 yrs which gave much higher wealth to all who wanted to have a go
5) Beat back the EU..hooray

by contrast every Labour Gov of the past 60 yrs has ended with an ignominious financial crisis where the Tories had to clean up the Labour mess. Yes every single time.

Do I think that our form of Government be it Labour or Tory is good...absolutely not. All Government is too big, too corrupt, too greedy, to wasteful.

WE need a law to restrict Gov'mt spending to 35% of GDP including indirect Taxes and to return the rest to us.

Al
 

Jacob

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beech1948":25mjzwk1 said:
... All Government is too big, too corrupt, too greedy, too wasteful....
You are an anarchist?
 
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