private charge notice

[Glitch]

No the registered keeper is legally required to either name, provide a list of possible candidates or take responsibility, hence my earlier comment about Plod then looking at charging someone with a taking offence as, if you are denying responsiblity and can not name an authorised driver for the time of the action then it is taken as a given that the vehicle was there without consent and the driver if identified has commited a crime. Also it does mean that you cannnot be clamped on privately owned land= extortion, but the police and local authority still have the right to do so.

So Consumer Advice - Scotland are wrong then?

Parking on private land is not a police matter. It comes under civil law. It's a contract between you and the landowner - you read the sign and decide if you accept the terms and conditions of the contract. If not drive away. If you don't see the sign, or the wording is incorrect then there's no contract.

Council Parking in England and Wales was decriminalised many years ago. The police don't get involved in parking tickets. Not sure about Scotland.

 

[Skydivermel]

Doesn't change the fact that someone didn't follow the rules in order to receive the notice. If it was genuinely unfair, breakdown, signage or other circumstances then an appeal is warranted but from personal observation (of family members) it's usually down to their own fault.

The bit I agree with is that the amount is often excessive and that generally comes from 'administration' fees slapped on. Thats what should be regulated to a greater extent. The same for the £10 service charge for processing your £2 import duty...

The thing here with Private parking companies is the law is very much on the parkers side. PPC's are simply a money making machine and have had it far too good for far to long. 90% of people just pay it and that is what they rely on. For the sake of a stamp just about everyone who get a private parking ticket can walk away without paying a penny. I recently won a case against Islington council about the timing of their meter clocks.

Example 1. I overstayed by 12mins in an Aldi car park. I was at a site meeting which over ran. I received a ticket for £60. I just threw it in the bin. 2nd letter arrived this time fee upped to £100. In the bin. 3rd Letter arrived threating court and now fee upped to £160. In the bin. 4th Letter arrived, FINAL DEMAND for £160. In the bin. Never heard from them again. So question is, why did I just bin them. For any private parking company they must have a legal agreement with the Landowner, not the shop/petrol station/railway station/airport/ or what ever. In the case of the Aldi car park, parking was free for 2hours. I overstayed for 12mins. There's a law about consequential loss. In this case they couldn't justify the fee, how do you charge for 12mins when 2hrs is free. Plus it's very likely in 99% of cases that the landowners legal agreement with the PPC wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

Example 2. I was called into London during the lockdown. I parked in a railway station carpark. Usually you can pay a man in a hut or pay at a machine. The man in the hut wasn't there & the only available machine wasn't working. My car was the only car in the car park when I parked. When I got the PCN the photo of my car was shown as the only car in the spaces shown on the photo circa 20 free spaces. The fee was £60. The fee for all day parking was £6.00. So question is how do they justify a £60 fee when all I took up was one space of the 300 available. I wrote to them and questioned the fee, they came back seeking £100. I went back to them and explained the consequential loss law and if they fancied their chances in court I'd see them there. Guess what, end of discussion.

Example 3. These companies make their tickets look almost identical to a legal ticket you would get from either a council warden or a police officer. They do this to scare people into paying. They all so offer the carrot stick approach in as much as if you pay within 14days we'll half the cost. So 1st bit of advise is never admit to them you were the driver. The driver is always responsible, not the registered keeper. 2nd, always always appeal, (they will always come back to you with a load of bollo(ks saying appeal failed) however as soon as you appeal the fine must be held at the initial fee. i.e. £50 or £60. Doing so gives you chance to get your ducks lined up and in most cases months to prepare.

Firstly go here FightBack Forums and read this article (part shown below)

Legal Enforceability of Private Parking Tickets

There is a great deal of doubt about the legal enforceability of private parking invoices that are issued to motorists. Unlike parking tickets issued by local authorities, which are backed by statute, the enforcement of private parking is essentially a matter of contract law. A private parking company needs to overcome many significant legal hurdles in order to be successful, which include:

• Establishing that any claim is under the law of contract, rather than the tort of trespass (see case of Excel Parking Services v Alan Matthews, Wrexham County Court, May 2009 where the parking company lost on this ground);
• Establishing that the parking company has sufficient interest in the land to bring a claim (see case of VCS v. HM Revenue & Customs, Upper Tax Tribunal, a binding decision at the level of the High Court) in which it was decided that unless the PPC has a proprietary interest in the land they are not able to offer contracts for parking;
• Establishing that all of the elements of a contract (offer, acceptance, consideration) are present;
• Except in England and Wales, establishing who the driver was on the relevant occasion, as any contract can only be enforced against the driver, who may or may not be the registered keeper of the vehicle;
• Establishing the prominence and adequacy of any warning signage, and that the driver actually saw and understood the signage (Waltham Forest v Vine [CCRTF 98/1290/B2]);
• Establishing that the amount claimed is not an unlawful “penalty”, including that there was no attempt to “frighten and intimidate” the driver (see well reported case of Excel Parking Services v Hetherington-Jakeman, Mansfield County Court, March 2008 where the parking company lost on this ground), and that charges must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss, or actual damages caused by trespass (see the Department of Transport's guidance on the Protection of Freedoms Act);
• Establishing that any contract does not fail foul of the Unfair Contract Terms Act and associated regulations.

Don't just pay. Fight these leeches.

 

[Droogs]

No, in the case of a private matter such as parking, you are not required to, if it is brought by the council, legal authorities or police then you are. In England and the rest of UK, the process proceeds due to the act of trespass, as once you overstay your permission you are commiting trespass, which until recently was a criminal act. The subsequent relating civil law is still for the most part based on that fact and is how they parking companies can then use the law of trespass to get money out of you. Here in Scotland they have to do so using a different civil code.

 

[Glitch]

*


Sorry, I should have said I didnt know the "motoring" laws were so different in Scotland...I was fully aware there were different laws in other legal matters.

So,....That being the case then,....you can basically park where you like in Scotland and if/ when you get a parking ticket, you just say you dont know who was driving and you, as the keeper of the vehicle are under no obligation to tell anyone who was driving at the time and the powers that be cannot hold you responsible in any financial way...??!!......I wished I'd known that mid September last year whilst in Edinburgh for the day....It would have saved me a long walk and a climb up that hill to the Castle & Museum from where we had the car booked in for the day....

.A fantastic day out by the way and the weather was glorious.

The contract to park is between the driver and the landowner (or their appointed rep).
I think it changed in England and Wales in recent years. under certain circumstances they can go after the registered keeper. Before then the advice was to ignore the demanding letters and debt collectors (not bailiffs)

I don't understand it all in detail but the guys on the FightBack forum do.

 

[DougT]

Someone used your reg.no.
I had the same. Charged for entering London and my car was in my drive. Haven’t been nowhere near London.

 

[timothyedoran]

Rather than get all hot under the collar it might just be less stress to cough up the money and move on. Unless that is you are better at detaching your emotions from stuff like this.

 

[Glitch]

Rather than get all hot under the collar it might just be less stress to cough up the money and move on. Unless that is you are better at detaching your emotions from stuff like this.

Because the driver believed they had the right permit. Genuine error, no one lost any revenue.

If you’re deliberately tried to avoid a parking fee and get caught then maybe you pay up because you gambled and lost.

 

[artie]

Someone used your reg.no.
I had the same. Charged for entering London and my car was in my drive. Haven’t been nowhere near London.

Did you have much trouble sorting it out?

 

[alanpo68]

The first thing to do is to google the company and see what kind of record they have for court action. Some companies work on the premise that enough people will just pay up and never take court action whilst others are extremely litigious.

 

[Sandyn]

Update to my original question.
In the private parking company's process. I have now passed the point where not knowing who the driver was, is an advantage to me, so I now know, however it is irrelevant.
I have investigated what has happened looked at the signs/street marking and found that the street parking company's signs and the permit they issued is not clear. As I said in an earlier post, there is an area controlled by the company. This covers two parallel streets, Street A and Street B. if you have a permit for Street A, it seems you can't park on Street B and vice versa. The permit the car was displaying gives no indication that it is for Street A only. The parking company's signs do not differentiate which area they cover, i.e. this is the sign for street A and this is the sign for street B.

Only Street A is marked by the council at one end, and there would be no reason for the driver to go to their home passing the sign, so would never see it. Street B is not marked in any way. One of the most important rules for parking companies is that the signs MUST be clear. In this case I genuinely believe they were not and the permit issued did not show for which street the permit was valid.
My plan is to continue following the company process and go to independent review, but if that fails, I will be happy to go to court. I firmly believe that a judge would agree the process was flawed and will reject the case. I would also request that all parking charges since the process was introduced should be reviewed to see which were issued incorrectly and should be repaid. Additional information is the driver was a nurse returning from duty in the evening, but she doesn't want that to be used. The PCN was issued at 6:02 in the evening. She genuinely thought she was parking in the correct place. The parking company has already rejected an appeal based on the driver thought they could park there.
I will inform the company of my intentions before going to independent review and give them a chance to cancel the charge (which is more than they gave the driver). I will have no fear going to court on this one and inform the company of my preferred course of action. I very much doubt the company would take the risk. If the company wins, I will pay the fine for the driver, If the driver wins, the company will have to go into a process of investigation and repay lots of fines/costs/ etc, so a big risk for them. There is no guarantee who would win. I believe it lies in favour of the driver, but it's really about who has the most to lose if they don't. I'm happy to take that risk.

I really believe in fairness. This charge in this particular instance is not fair. After this is done, in the name of fairness to other people who might have been issued with a charge under the same circumstances, I would contact the local council to make sure the company marking meet legal requirements and a street sign is put up. I would also request the parking company/council review ALL charges issued in that area to make sure they were issued correctly.

I have no problems with private parking rules but they are enforced by companies/people motivated by money and profits, so you must challenge them and ensure they are doing everything by the book and fair.

 

[Sandyn]

Rather than get all hot under the collar it might just be less stress to cough up the money and move on. Unless that is you are better at detaching your emotions from stuff like this

If it had been deliberate by the driver, then I would agree. your fault, so pay up ( I would have paid the fine for them), but as explained it was nor deliberate. The driver chose to park beside the company sign , because the same logo was on the permit. There was nothing to suggest the permit was not valid. An easy mistake to make after a long day at work, on a dark cold night

 

[Sandyn]

I think it changed in England and Wales in recent years. under certain circumstances they can go after the registered keeper.

In Scotland until the 15th Nov 2019, the keeper could not be held responsible, so a private company could do nothing, but the law was changed with the introduction of the Transport (Scotland) Act 2019, but the Act does not contain any real detail in some areas:

For example, what needs to be in a Notice. Several sections say:

The notice contains such information as the Scottish Ministers may by regulations prescribe. (i.e. the notice will have to contain information, but we don't know what, yet)

Or for evidence which must be provided:

The Scottish Ministers may by regulations prescribe evidence which must accompany a notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper. (again--They will have to provide evidence, but no idea what that has to be)

is not clear.....You couldn't make it up!!

 

[Rorschach]

Good luck, hope you will keep us updated. From what you have said it definitely sounds like you have a good case the parking company needed clearer signage.

 

[Sandyn]

always always appeal, (they will always come back to you with a load of bollo(ks saying appeal failed) however as soon as you appeal the fine must be held at the initial fee. i.e. £50 or £60.

That is very useful info. On a letter I got from the company, the specifically say if I appeal ( which has been done) the initial 'discount' charge of £60 will no longer apply and the charge will be £100.

 

[Rorschach]

That is very useful info. On a letter I got from the company, the specifically say if I appeal ( which has been done) the initial 'discount' charge of £60 will no longer apply and the charge will be £100.

I don't know the rules for Scotland but in England I am pretty sure that's illegal. If they offer a discount for paying early they are not allowed to penalise you for appealing.

 

[Sandyn]

If they offer a discount for paying early they are not allowed to penalise you for appealing.

That would seem fair. I'm not sure what the law is in Scotland. There is so much conflicting information, even Citizens Advice Scotland has out of date information on it's site.

 

[John Brown]

20 mph limits near schools here, children crossing between parked cars and drivers with their eyes on their speedos.

Only in Cornwall would people wear swimming trunks while driving.

 

[bluenose]

Precisely. They are avoidable.

My sincere apologies Phil, in my haste I misread your wording, sorry

 

[Sandyn]

So Consumer Advice - Scotland are wrong then?

Consumer Advice Scotland says:
"There’s no law in Scotland that states the registered keeper of the car is automatically liable for a parking ticket. You are also under no obligation to disclose the details of the driver at the time."
unfortunately they are a bit misleading on the first statement.

Transport (Scotland Act ) 2019 Part 8-Recovery of unpaid parking charges
Clause 95
Right in certain circumstances to recover from keeper of vehicle
(1)The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

the clause then goes on to define the circumstances.

Also Citizens Advice Scotland claim:

"If you’re the registered keeper of the car, you may be sent a ticket. If you didn’t park the car at the time the ticket was issued and you don’t say who the driver was, there’s no law in Scotland that makes you, as the registered keeper, automatically liable for the ticket.

You don’t have to identify who it was that parked the car. It’s still possible that a parking company may try to make you pay the parking charge by taking you to court. You can defend any court action."

Under the 2019 law, you would probably lose in court (assuming it was a straight case), as the companies have been granted the power to recover the charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

The terminology 'automatically liable for a parking ticket' is probably correct, but misleading. The company has to take you to court to recover the unpaid charge. They have been doing that successfully and with more confidence since the law was changed.

 

[Droogs]

That is very useful info. On a letter I got from the company, the specifically say if I appeal ( which has been done) the initial 'discount' charge of £60 will no longer apply and the charge will be £100.

Pretty sure that would be classed as extortion in a court