Plane Makers...something to float yer boat??

[jimi43]

Part war of attrition...part friendship...and mostly encouragement was all I needed to get my backside out into the shop again and make a prototype tool...as "suggested" by our very own Toby...(tobytools)! 8)

So having absolutely no idea where to start...a few more head scratchings and observations of other fine tools lead me to make one...for Toby...a request...and by chance one for me too! (how clever was that!! :wink: )

Steel....O1...of course...3mm ground gauge plate...

Toby requested 6 1/2" of tooth area and a total length of 8" so that's the dimensions. In retrospect...and if I ever make another..I should have cut it a few inches longer, leaving enough steel to use as hold-down space...but it worked out ok...

Handle was to be a tanged version as opposed to scales...so that was marked up too using a chisel as a template.

Now...this is where the pondering starts...I suppose it would have been nice to cut the teeth all by hand or employ piskies to do it for me...but I have long since lost interest in the magic of repetitive tasks like this with hand tools...and there is no way I have the skills to get the teeth all at the right pitch AND even...so I thought I would use the milling machine.

Over the last few weeks I had been pondering how to do this...I notice that Noel Liogier uses their mill and a tiny bullnose cutter...at an angle to create waves of teeth with round bottoms...very clever. But I had a 60 deg dovetail cutter...(don't ask me why)...and I figured that should do the trick.

At first I thought I would mount the steel upright on a right-angle plate but then I had a brainwave...the mill tilts doesn't it! (homer)

I'd completely forgotten!!!

The "side" was set just forward of upright...so about 80-85 degrees...LN are 80 degrees but I think that's too forward myself..so I pulled it back a tad.

It was a slow start...but as I became more confident I could speed up so it went quite quickly after that.

The stock is 60 mm wide...3mm thick so this will make two floats...

I am in the process of making a precision "RAS"...using a Proxxon drill and some neat cutters...which would have made the cutting job a breeze...but since it isn't ready yet...I had to resort to the old hacksaw....

...a long job...this stuff is pretty thick...good job I didn't choose 5mm!

Then to cut the tang...

I use a lot of box...and burr oak...mahogany...so I needed to get some offcuts to test...and chose a piece of boxwood...seemed tough enough...

Just did two opposing faces...to get an idea of the flatness...the smoothness and the crispness of interface...

...yup...I'm happy with that...and thanks to Philly for telling me to test it BEFORE I hardened it...(just in case!). Cheers Phil!! 8)

So...now to stamp it with the KT mark...using old hammer stamps...(yes bootfair!)....

Done.....

OH...sorry...the letters are a bit off square...you get this when you are working a manual process as I was trying to line up the "T" with the grain of the steel.....all the best makers do this ya know...ask CLIFTON!! :wink:

So...to the handles...

Any preferences guys?

Toby...this just needs hardening now..so I should get the kiln fired up this week and then I am going to put a bluing on it to protect the steel...

Oh...and sharpen it of course!

I'll leave you to make one of your superb hawthorn handles for it...

Enjoy... :wink:

Jimi

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Interesting to see how well it works unhardened - that accords with John M Whelan's advice in his book, 'Making Traditional Wooden Planes'. He reckoned you could get about three planes out of an unhardened float before it needed touching up with a file.

It might be a good plan to temper it back rather more than you would a plane iron; something about a spring temper, so that a sawfile will just about cut the finished tool. Tempered to plane iron hardness, there'd be no way you could sharpen it without a special grinding wheel - and you'd be there all week with slipstones!

 

[n0legs]

Wow !!

 

[jimi43]

Interesting to see how well it works unhardened - that accords with John M Whelan's advice in his book, 'Making Traditional Wooden Planes'. He reckoned you could get about three planes out of an unhardened float before it needed touching up with a file.

It might be a good plan to temper it back rather more than you would a plane iron; something about a spring temper, so that a sawfile will just about cut the finished tool. Tempered to plane iron hardness, there'd be no way you could sharpen it without a special grinding wheel - and you'd be there all week with slipstones!

Yes....when I showed Phil Edwards he recommended that I tested it before I hardened it...the pitch of those teeth appears to be critical. I did make a tiny test piece to see if it cut at all...and it did...my thumb!! :shock:

I usually temper the plane irons I make at 250 degrees (lamb casserole to off setting :mrgreen: ) and let go cold.

What would you suggest...I am by no means an expert at this black art!!

Cheers mate...

Jimi

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think for this one, somewhere nearer 300-310 centigrade might be better. About a full blue if going by colour. Much harder than that will damned hard on the files. (Screwdrivers are about 280-290C, and you can just about file them - it's cruel to the files, though.)

Maybe a test-piece from a slip of scrap gauge plate might be a good idea, and see if you can cut it with a file once tempered.

 

[AndyT]

Wonderful stuff!

You might want to have a look at Holtzapffel's great work on Turning for some historical hints. Despite the general title, Volume 2 is a survey of hand tools with loads of useful detail on planes, saws files etc. (You can download it from the Master's Library at WK Fine Tools.)
Chapter 28 has a few words about floats. Having said that the teeth are shaped with a triangular file, he adds that floats are hardened and very slightly tempered, just enough to avoid fracture in use. After they have been dulled in use, they are re-tempered to deep orange or blue, so they can be resharpened with a file.

The Hawley Collection in Sheffield has some floats, from the Marples plane making workshops when they closed in 1965. Alongside the floats is a special clamp in which they could be held for sharpening by hand. You can see it at the bottom of this picture:

I think your idea is more practical! And it would take a commercial level of use to make one blunt, I reckon.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Now that's interesting, Prof. I've never come across the idea of hardening right out, using until blunt, then tempering back - but why not? It makes sense. The dead hard tool will last a long time, as long as it's not too brittle to serve.

Maybe if Jimi hardens the float right out, then (say) boils in water for half an hour or so to stress relieve it a bit, the result would be unsharpenable with a file, but would last so long in intermittent service it wouldn't matter anyway.

In the days of carbon steel lathe tools, it used to be common practice to harden and temper, use until worn, then anneal and reshape by filing, reharden and temper. They preferred not to grind too much because the heat of grinding drew the temper, and because straight carbon steel doesn't harden deeply, so regrinding too often took off the hard skin and started to expose the softer core.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I think for this one, somewhere nearer 300-310 centigrade might be better..

Sounds a bit hot to me. The lamb casserole will be ruined :lol:

Seriously though, that is looking jolly good.

 

[jimi43]

Good Lord! I have just got Annie used to opening the oven and finding tools in there and now you want me to hijack the kettle!!! :shock:

I'm done for...done for I tell ya! :mrgreen:

I think I like the idea of hardening out and low tempering...I think I'll try that first.

The edge is bleedin' sharp anyways...when I was cleaning off the cooling oil with a cloth and alcohol I looked down and the cloth was shredded!!!

Good job I looked!

I will do that and see...

And Andy..I need that book...looks scrumptious!

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement guys

Jimi

 

[AndyT]

Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html

 

[jimi43]

Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html

I can pick it up from Amazon for about five grand...

OFFER PRICE!

How do I order it direct...it's a bit confusing mate?

Jimi

 

[swagman]

Terrific work Jimi. I only wish I had some of your talent.

Stewie;

 

[G S Haydon]

Excellent Jim! In the few books I have the only nod to floats is in Ellis where he says to make them out of old files. He says a Joiner would most likely use them for levelling out a mortice if the chopping out had gone wayward. Handles, pah, leave it tang exposed .
Also what stewie said!

 

[jimi43]

Terrific work Jimi. I only wish I had some of your talent.

Stewie;

Such nice words Stewie but I fear that, having seen one of your masterpieces in the flesh...and used it extensively...I am not even in the same class.....just a back shed whittler mate...but thanks!

Jimi

 

[swagman]

Hi Jimi. I think your on the ball with the notion of a greater rake angle requirement on planemaker face floats. LN's current 80* is in my opinion too acute. 85 - 90 degree's would be more ideal.

Its a topic that deserves some further discussion and experimentation.

Stewie;

 

[jimi43]

Hi Jimi. I think your on the ball with the notion of a greater rake angle requirement on planemaker face floats. LN's current 80* is in my opinion too acute. 85 - 90 degree's would be more ideal.

Its a topic that deserves some further discussion and experimentation.

Stewie;

Now I have the setup sorted I may try some other angles but this one works so well....I think I may have (quite by accident) hit the "sweet spot"....

I would need some tests to compare with commercial models...I have the Liogier..so that could be test one...anyone else got the LN one apart from in Australia?

Jimi

 

[AndyT]

Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html

I can pick it up from Amazon for about five grand...

OFFER PRICE!

How do I order it direct...it's a bit confusing mate?

Jimi

When I did the review it was easy to order direct from the museum. I expect you still could if you ring up and ask.
Alternatively, just use a different bookshop. I tried Waterstones and they say they have it for the proper price
https://m.waterstones.com/BookDetails.aspx?bookId=8128993

Oilstones would not be so good for this job.

 

[Corneel]

Jim, why did you leave that piece on the tip blank? I think it would work better if the first tooth can act in a scraping action.

Otherwise, looks great! Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.

 

[jimi43]

Jim, why did you leave that piece on the tip blank? I think it would work better if the first tooth can act in a scraping action.

Otherwise, looks great! Now it's going to be exciting if the heat treating will induce a lot of warp.

Hi Corneel...

I'm going to cut that bit off later...yesterday was teeth testing.

Yes...warpage...(?)...that bit's got me worried too...any ideas on prevention? It's all about the "S Curve" isn't it....have to read some more Tubal Cain....

Jimi

 

[jimi43]

Yes you do need that book - haven't you bought it yet? :roll:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/book-review-day-out-the-ken-hawley-experience-t61355.html

I can pick it up from Amazon for about five grand...

OFFER PRICE!

How do I order it direct...it's a bit confusing mate?

Jimi

When I did the review it was easy to order direct from the museum. I expect you still could if you ring up and ask.
Alternatively, just use a different bookshop. I tried Waterstones and they say they have it for the proper price
https://m.waterstones.com/BookDetails.aspx?bookId=8128993

Oilstones would not be so good for this job.

Cheers mate...I searched everywhere!

Jimi