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Paul Sellers a bit controversial

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mark w

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I copied this from Paul Sellers blog what do you think, is he right or completely wrong?

Myth busting #2
Forget flattening water stones – hollow stones give perfect convex bevels

No sharpening stone needs to be flat. For three decades woodworkers have been duped into believing that stones must be flat, but if you sharpen on an elongated convex camber the stone can hollow all it wants because you want the convex and the hollowed stone creates exactly what you want. Did you never stop to ask yourself why craftsmen’s stones of old were hollow? I mean all of them? They weren’t stupid for 200 years and then we came along with our better ways and threw out what was working perfectly because someone wrote an article. They only needed to sharpen and hone a convex bevel. I never understood why their seemed such an intent to keep flattening stones. All those gurus of woodworking (little more than salesmen really) out their selling honing water stones and then came the flattening stones and the whole ritual of sharpening and then the whole ritual of method.

You can use hollowed stones and flat stones to create a convex bevel easily in seconds. I use diamond plates and have done for nearly two decades and did so because they also stay dead flat. The main advantage is no water baths and mess.



Think about it.
 

Pete Maddex

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Hi,

He says no sharpening stone needs to be flat then he says he uses dimond stones because they stay flat, make your mind up.

No matter what he says I have found a system that works for me and I will stick with it.

Pete
 

bugbear

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Pete Maddex":1qvlsm5g said:
Hi,

He says no sharpening stone needs to be flat then he says he uses dimond stones because they stay flat, make your mind up.

No matter what he says I have found a system that works for me and I will stick with it.

Pete
He appears to be tilting at a straw man - the hollow he's talking about (on a careful reading) is a longitudinal one. Many people (myself included) have pointed out that these are not a problem.

BugBear
 

Alf

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mark w":3opn2bm4 said:
I copied this from Paul Sellers blog what do you think, is he right or completely wrong?

Myth busting #2
(snippage)
All those gurus of woodworking (little more than salesmen really) out their selling honing water stones and then came the flattening stones and the whole ritual of sharpening and then the whole ritual of method.
Um, is this the same Paul Sellers currently with books and DVDs for sale, covering amongst other things, sharpening? :-s (I bet it's a lovely glass house with wonderful joinery though. :wink: )
 

Jacob

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mark w":vohjzkip said:
I copied this from Paul Sellers blog what do you think, is he right or completely wrong?

Myth busting #2
Forget flattening water stones – hollow stones give perfect convex bevels......

Not sure of all the details but I expect he is right. I've been saying much the same for a number of years. There's a lot of us about!
Pete Maddex":vohjzkip said:
He says no sharpening stone needs to be flat then he says he uses dimond stones because they stay flat, make your mind up.
.....
He probably uses both! Shock, horror! :shock: How can that be!
 

Jacob

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Paul has added a note about hollow stones and rounded bevels here: http://paulsellers.com/2011/12/sharpeni ... ow-stones/
I'm impressed by his rounded bevel system - it's the same as I have been describing (including "the dip") but carried forwards to involve just three diamond plates. It's better put so simply and it's only a matter of time before everybody is at it.
He's also a bit dubious about the plane flattening obsession. :shock:
 

Digit

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He's also a bit dubious about the plane flattening obsession.
So am I, I make my own in wood and movement seems not to be important.

Roy.
 

jorgoz

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Digit":1eey4tk1 said:
He's also a bit dubious about the plane flattening obsession.
So am I, I make my own in wood and movement seems not to be important.

Roy.
So do i, but if i don't flatten the soles of my woodies i can't get proper shavings or loose a lot of control over them. I do create a couple of hollows along their length, japanese style, which makes slide even better due to less contact surface, but even then the remaing flats are inline with each other.

And if he says sharpening on a hollow stone is the way to go, then he should ditch his diamond plates and stick to his hollowed stones. End of.
 

No skills

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Had to look at Pauls drawing to realise what was being talked about (yes I am that dim), my slow witted self postulates that a well worn in stone could be better for someone than a new stone but one mans worn in stone possably woudnt suit somebody else (due physical differences between us all).

I'll climb back in my cave now.
 

Digit

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I do created a couple of hollows along their length, japanese style,
Same here, obviously there is a limit to any out of flat, but the idea of lapping a cast iron sole makes me sweat!

Roy.
 

bugbear

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Digit":140oryf2 said:
I do created a couple of hollows along their length, japanese style,
Same here, obviously there is a limit to any out of flat, but the idea of lapping a cast iron sole makes me sweat!

Roy.
Lapping (as normally done) can be made to work on smaller planes, say up to #5 at a max. For larger planes, several factors conspire to make it ineffective.

* For larger planes, you need a truly huge reference surface, which may be difficult or expensive to get
* you need lots of abrasive
* the working pressure between the metal and abrasive goes down, reducing the cutting rate
* there's more metal to remove

A reference-and-remove-the-high-spots method is the way forward, IMHO for flattening any plane, but certainly for larger ones.

BugBear
 

Sawyer

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I didn't think Paul Sellers was very clear about the relationship between hollow stones and convex bevels. Does he sharpen crossways perhaps? Hollow stones are fine of course for cambered plane blades.

I've been woodworking for 25+ years, only ever sharpened freehand and have never needed to flatten a stone.

Never really tried the convex bevel, so can't comment. P'raps I'll give it a go..
 

Jacob

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Sawyer":ps9jekdd said:
I didn't think Paul Sellers was very clear about the relationship between hollow stones and convex bevels. Does he sharpen crossways perhaps? Hollow stones are fine of course for cambered plane blades.

I've been woodworking for 25+ years, only ever sharpened freehand and have never needed to flatten a stone.

Never really tried the convex bevel, so can't comment. P'raps I'll give it a go..
I think he's saying that hollow stones are fine (except for flattening faces) though they will inevitably produce a convex bevel (exaggerated in the drawing), but that's OK too. But he uses flat diamond plates anyway!

Bloody expensive those 3 plates £50 ish each! I was considering them as an option - ebaying all my stones would pay for it, but I may not get around to it.
 

jorgoz

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When creating a convex bevel i would presume it would be much trickier to actually sharpen the cutting edge as you have no idea when you hit the edge compared to using flat stones. There's more variables involved.

Am i correct in assuming this technique doesn't/can't use side sharpening ? If not, it would be quite easy to dig into waterstones given there a lot softer than oilstones and mess up your cutting edge. I think side sharpening is also easier than, oh how does one call sharpening with the bevel in line with the lenght of the stone.
 

Jacob

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jorgoz":31j7ftbb said:
When creating a convex bevel i would presume it would be much trickier to actually sharpen the cutting edge as you have no idea when you hit the edge compared to using flat stones. There's more variables involved.
You don't set out to "create" a convex bevel - it's just the by-product of a relaxed freehand style where you aim to start the pass at 30º (judged by eye) but dip the handle (or blade end) as you go, and so reduce the angle
Am i correct in assuming this technique doesn't/can't use side sharpening ? If not, it would be quite easy to dig into waterstones given there a lot softer than oilstones and mess up your cutting edge. I think side sharpening is also easier than, oh how does one call sharpening with the bevel in line with the lenght of the stone.
You can sharpen in any direction you like, backwards, forwards, sideways, round and round in circles. Obviously if what you do doesn't work with a particular stone, for whatever reason, then you do it differently.
.
 

Alf

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I can't stand this any more. I just can't.

Can someone please correct the spelling of "controversial" in the thread title? [-o<
 

Digit

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Bugbear, it is the effort that makes me sweat! :lol:
A woody has only to be planed or sanded.

Roy.
 
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