Not sure about pricing a window

[Joints]

Hi Guys,

I am in need of a little help as I am usually a furniture maker but have been asked to replace a window in a house.

It wants to be basically exactly the same as the original just nice and new.

It measures 8ft x 5ft and has 8 pieces of glass, which the client will provide from the old window. Also the client only really requires 2 of the windows on one side, top and bottom, to open so i could save some time by making the other 6 paines (spelling?) into the frame.

Basically what to you guys think is a fair price for this work considering I don't have a spindle moulder or a decent router table which will have to be bought and it can be made in soft or hardwood.

What would you charge?

Many regards
George

 

[Joints]

Bah, it also as a sill at the bottom and one between the two rows of windows.

 

[jeffinfrance]

hi george,

if this is your first one, be prepared to make a loss!!

doors and windows are something i am starting to make. in fact pretty much everything i am asked to do at the moment is a first for me.

there's a lot of work involved (experts on here may disagree)

as far as pricing goes, someone with a fully kitted shop who knocks them out by the dozen, could do this in a fraction of the time it will take you. obviously he would have his spindle moulder and cutters to pay for, as you have your router table to buy. i did my first door hand held.....wouldn't reccomend it, it took months.

if this is a project you would really like to do, you are going to have to take the time to work everything out first.

design first.

what does the client want/what do they need. you say they want to keep the glass, but do they need double glazing? float glass is pretty inexpensive and you have no guarantee you wont break it trying to save it and waste a day in the process. what finish do they want? how long do they want it to last? what about draughtproofing/rebates etc. think how you are going to put it together. you need to design all the joints of the frame and window. what profiles and mouldings do they want? you'll need tooling for that. i'm assuming you are more experienced than i and have a good idea how long that will take you. how is it going to be fitted?

i woiuld reccomend doug ellis's book "modern practical joinery". i wish i'd had that before i dived into my first door.

next, ironmongary. that needs selecting and sourcing....not forgetting secutity.

dont forget you consumables....fixings, glue, sanding discs, oil/varnish.

then, overheads....etc.

add that lot up and add a small/large contingency.

then tell the client.

when they've picked themselves up off the floor, negotiate down to a price where you can still pay the mortgage. if thats still too high, let someone else do it and save your first for your house!

all the best and good luck,

jeff

 

[JoinerySolutions]

I am in a pedantic mood

Joints: It's panes of glass and the "cill" above the bottom cill is a Transom.
You can get by without a router table to make this window but a quick knocked up one from mdf will make things a bit easier and faster. Be prepared to use some handtools in the whole process.
Make plenty of notes of the original..dimensions etc.
As Jeff posted list out all materials then add a percentage to cover time to get them sorted/ordered. Take an educated guess at timescale and multiply by your hourly rate. Then add a bit.

Jeff: It's George not Doug, told you I was in one of those moods

If all else fails, sub the job out and take a percentage for organising the work. :wink:
Rob.

 

[superunknown]

I think you really need at least a router table, it will pay for itself in the time it will save you.

If I was in your position I would go to my nearest timber yard and buy off the shelf components, then you could get by with hand held router and hand tools.

Or

As mentioned, sub it out

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

 

[jeffinfrance]

sorry rob, got doug on the brain! malhereusement!

good job you corrected me, poor joints could have been looking for doug for ages!

 

[Mattty]

It's an easy job apart from re-using the glass. Are you removing the old glass?

You really must make a rod for this job, both height and width, this will help you enormously and should result in the glass fitting.

I would cost the job at 2 days in the workshop + fitting(?) + Glazing (?) + Removing old glass (? if your doing this make sure you allow for breakages) + Timber + Profit.
If doing the lot £900-1500

 

[awkwood]

Iam in a similar situation i do get asked for a few windows and doors, but im not really set up for them spindle tenoner etc etc, I do some of the more unusal ones but get a specialists to do the standard ones

A shop that specialises in windows will make that in less than a day so there will be a cost of a day e.g £30-40 per hour x 8 hours plus materials

I would think a softwood window will be less than £500, The last time i got a price to have a softwood window made was approx 54" x 42" with two opener cost £330

Also i would never make a window frame to fit the old glass unless its a leaded light or some other special feature

 

[ondablade]

At another level the market for what you will produce (same quality, as a one off) determines what you can charge - with maybe some adjustment due to the specific circumstances.

Charge any more and you're likely even if they go for it to end up later with a sore customer that won't be coming back. Charge low and it's got downsides on top of the obvious too.

Intangibles can play a big part too e.g. people want the high prices of some fancy designers because of the exclusivity it confers, or the product isn't easily available and has big time cachet.

The question then becomes how much will it cost to make for time, materials, overheads etc, and how much profit am i prepared to take. Then you either want the job, or you do not.

If you're new to the field or not well equipped then it may cost you more than you would like, or it may not be possible to make to the right quality level.

If the market is one that's pretty well established with competition and expert producers doing what you do (but maybe you can get past this by offering something unique to you that they don't do) then you'll probably struggle to make money/extract a margin until you get some experience.

My best thought (more out of an engineering/special purpose machine building environment than woodworking - but the same applies) is that you need to figure out/evolve to decide what lines you are going to make and sell - decide what business you are in.

Otherwise unless you can for other reasons command very big money (and even then) you will forever be run ragged and stressed while trying to figure how to do things, and stuck with high technical (how the f*** do i do this, oh pipper i've messed up) and commercial (but i thought you wanted xyz) type risks.

We all of course have to start somewhere, which is why start ups are stressful. There's also scope to flex this picture quite a bit depending on your preferences and attributes (i couldn't bear doing the same stuff all the time) but there are limits...

It's easy to let your fears and insecurities con you into selling lower than you should - if you can't make to the required standard then you probably shouldn't be doing it, but if you can then (even if it takes you longer than you hope it will in future) charge the market price...

 

[ondablade]

Viewed the level of whether or not to invest in developing a new product/new area of business or not there's (or should be - most in my experience make bad decisions) a fairly standard list of criteria used in industry:

1. Probability of commercial success. (commercial risk - do we understand the market and its requirements)
2. Probability of technical success. (technical risk or difficulty - can we design, develop and make and sell (delete as applicable) what the market needs if one is to be competitive?)
3. Financial reward. (absolute revenue and profit flows, plus how quickly can we recover our investment?)
4. Strategic fit. (how well does the project complement existing business direction and plans, or if new is it the kind of business we want to get into - plus how great will its impact be?)
5. Strategic leverage and synergies. (how well the project will open up future opportunities, how good a fit is it with our capabilities and needs?)

Each of these blows out into a list of fairly stock questions, but that's maybe getting too complicated for here.

 

[Mattty]

Iam in a similar situation i do get asked for a few windows and doors, but im not really set up for them spindle tenoner etc etc, I do some of the more unusal ones but get a specialists to do the standard ones

A shop that specialises in windows will make that in less than a day so there will be a cost of a day e.g £30-40 per hour x 8 hours plus materials

I would think a softwood window will be less than £500, The last time i got a price to have a softwood window made was approx 54" x 42" with two opener cost £330

Also i would never make a window frame to fit the old glass unless its a leaded light or some other special feature

Just to be clear- The op asked how much for an exact copy.
I agree that a cheaper standard window could be made to that size for around £500 in s/w but not an exact copy. 2 completely different poles of the joinery sphere.

 

[Shultzy]

If it was me, I'd make a copy of quarter of the window in cheap softwood. This will give you plenty of info on time, joints, techniques etc. to make an accurate assessment of the work involved.

 

[awkwood]

exactly the same as the original just nice and new.

I have read the post again and now i understand you need to make an exact copy of the old window and buy a ssindle moulder and all the custom tooling to create exact copy

If it was a matter getting tooling made to create an exact match that would be a major cost you could add on eg. spindle moulder cutters and limiters for the frame stock more for the opening casements and scribers for the tenoner

I dont know how much of the cost of a spindle moulder you could add to the price but it will be trade off speed against cost

I have often come up against this, does the customer really want an exact copiy or do they want a similar style of window. this needs to be made clear when disscusing the quote

I have the choice of the common profiles which they already have tooling for eg. ovalo, ogee, 10 degree chamfer etc when i order replacment windows from my joinery manufacturer

 

[Benchwayze]

I used to send these enquirers to 'Magnet' Joinery... :lol:

Are they still in business?

:lol:

John

 

[chipchaser]

Hi George,

If you are a competent furniture maker you should have no trouble making a window. Maybe you shouldn’t start with a large window having eight lights but don’t be put off if you do have the required skills.

Some points of which you may not be aware: If the dwelling is in England, the Building Regulations require that a new replacement window meets the requirements set out in Part L. You do not need to comply if you are repairing a window but the definition of repair is quite tight. There are a few other exemptions, for example: listed buildings if complying would adversely affect the character; an unheated porch or conservatory at ground level and less than 30 sm floor area.

If the job is in the main street opposite the town hall, or the Building Inspectors favourite café, I would be cautious!

Building Regulations can be downloaded, free, from the Government Portal, try Googling “ADL1B Part L Existing Buildings”. Don’t get caught by the site that looks like a government site but charges for the download! The Regs are being tightened up in October 2010.

I am concerned when you say the client wants an exact copy. Do they really mean that? If so why? Are they really passionate about the architectural quality of their house? In that case you might be required to machine window sections to match the existing.

If a Conservation Officer says an “exact copy” that is what must be provided, exact in every detail. Is the house listed or in a conservation area? Your client should obtain the appropriate consents first if either applies. The up side of this is that you should not then need to comply with building regs.

Assuming exact is slightly flexible I would think, with your clients agreement, in terms of buying standard window sections from a merchant. They should not be too expensive and you won’t need to invest in expensive kit that you might not have much use for if you find windows are not your thing. You should be able to make all the joints with basic hand tools. A morticing machine would be nice but isn’t essential.

I bought standard hardwood cill sections for sash windows from Howarth and I don’t think they cost me much more than the basic hardwood and all the machining was done. All I needed to do was cut two trenches to accommodate the bottoms of the sash boxes. Ignore merchants who say they can’t sell you window sections because it is illegal and take your custom elsewhere.

I like your drawing but it is lacking detail. It shows: the cill, transom, window head, two jambs and three mullions but no opening casements, or sub frames for each light if it is that style of window.

Unless the window is glazed with beads and glazing tape it may be more difficult than your client thinks to remove the glass without breaking it. Old putty can be very hard and it is easy to miss the glazing sprig just catching the corner of a pane until the pane cracks as you try to ease it out. Unless the glass is of value, i.e. old which implies the window is also old and should be conservatively repaired rather than replaced, attempting re-use may be difficult.

If the existing window has more than the two opening lights the client requested, how will the glass recovered from unwanted opening lights fit the new fixed lights? The only way it might if is the window has fixed sub frames. That is not so common in private dwellings, more a public or commercial building detail.

Building Regs also require sufficient opening lights to provide natural ventilation unless another form of ventilation is available. Will only two opening lights meet the requirement?

If you do the job be aware of the need to make an exact survey of the opening. As Matty says make rods but don’t forget that sometimes the masonry, particularly below the cill, is not straight and level. In older building with minimal foundations it is common to find that the brickwork below the jambs has settled relative to the less heavily loaded brickwork below the opening. And one side might have settled more than the other. Check for square and vertical.

I am not trying to put you off and do hope these comments are helpful. Apologies if these are things you had already thought of and for the length of this post.

Good luck

Graham

 

[Joints]

Wow guys thanks for all the great advice.

Well going to the glass, they are leaded pieces so each pane has around 16-20 smaller rectangles inside of it. I am fairly happy with taking these out but I will cost it in and explain the the customer that something could happen and there could be a break, but luckily his niece specialises in leaded glass and she was going to clean them up a bit anyway.

Building regs is the biggest concern for me, but the client did mention that they saw a house in Germany that has a separate frame on the inside which has removable sections that you swap around from summer/winter so I could push that idea a bit more.

The actualy moulding and toolings etc are quite simle, nearly all flat possibly 10 degree angles so that aspect shouldn't cost too much.

I have talked to a few joiners and have had some rough quotes of £500-600 for making the window so I might get someone else to make it and have a real good look at the construction and install it. Then if the customer likes the job and gets me to do the smaller windows I will have some more knowledge to do it (plus the extra money for any machinery).

Anyways, I will I have a ponder and talk to the client.

All the best guys and thanks for the help. I will tell you how it goes

George (Doug)