• We invite you to join UKWorkshop.
    Members can turn off viewing Ads!

Not a flat world Record

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

dickster2112

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2011
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
Malvern
A while ago I acquired a Record no6 plane. I was told it was bought new in the 60's.

DSCF2204.JPG


The bottom looked a bit scratched so I gave it a little bit of a rub on some 60 grit paper on a saw table.
This seemed to take ages to get anywhere so I checked with a good straight edge, there is a 10thou gap
at the back. Also some strange blotchy marking on the metal.
( the black lines are my pen marks left from sanding)

DSCF2206.JPG


My questions are - has anyone seen this sort of marking before, and if so do you know what causes it?
Also what do people think about the merits of trying to to get this thing flat, is it worth the hours of sanding at the table saw?
O and any ideas on date, is it from the sixties?



Any ideas appreciated

Ric
 

Attachments

DTR

Established Member
Joined
11 Mar 2011
Messages
1,870
Reaction score
8
Location
Essex
That frog looks a lot older than 1960s (not that I am expert by any stretch of the imagination).

As for the blotchiness, I have no idea what it is but my no 7 is the same (actually worse if that photo is anything to go by)
 

Jacob

Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
18,036
Reaction score
769
Location
Derbyshire
dickster2112":17fqvy6v said:
.............
My questions are - has anyone seen this sort of marking before, and if so do you know what causes it?
The original casting would have been dark grey to black. Machining the sole takes off the high points so the low points stay grey until the machining reaches them. Your grey patch is the last vestige of a hollow, but so shallow that you can just ignore it.
Also what do people think about the merits of trying to to get this thing flat, is it worth the hours of sanding at the table saw?
Complete waste of time, don't bother, rarely necessary. Ten thou "at the back" is nothing; being slightly convex over the length is perfectly OK. Being concave in the middle could be a problem (unlikely) but I wouldn't even look at it until I'd done everything else i.e. sharpen set, test drive with a few hours of planing.
"Flattening" is very fashionable but wastes a lot of time and could spoil tools in the process.
 

bugbear

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Messages
13,074
Reaction score
1
Location
North Suffolk
dickster2112":32z9lwkk said:
Also some strange blotchy marking on the metal.
Blotchey marks may well be where the sole was rusted and then cleaned. Some rust penetrates into the cast iron.

A plane needs to be flat to work well - the big question is how flat.

Flattening needs to be done properly - just rubbing away can have a nasty tendancy to generate convexity, making the problem worse.

However, there's plenty of good advice out on the web about how to flatten effectively and well.

BugBear
 

yetloh

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2008
Messages
1,378
Reaction score
19
Location
Sussex
The 60s were when it all really started to go wrong for Record and Stanley with the qualty going down the pan, so not an obviously good vintage, although it is probably fair to say it got even worse in the 70s.

Jim
 

Jacob

Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
18,036
Reaction score
769
Location
Derbyshire
yetloh":1knmtq2h said:
The 60s were when it all really started to go wrong for Record and Stanley with the qualty going down the pan, so not an obviously good vintage, although it is probably fair to say it got even worse in the 70s.

Jim
My Record 5 1/2, new 1982, is spot on.
Our OPs plane is a lot older and obviously has been very well used in the intervening 50 or more years (as indicated by the short blade, probably only another 30 years left in it!).
If it needs flattening why did the previous users not bother, and how did they manage to do all that planing?
The 10 thou at the back is most likely just normal wear and almost certainly won't have any bearing at all on the planing performance. But until it's put to use there's no way of knowing. I guess our OP is a bit of a beginner (or he wouldn't be asking these questions) so I reckon he'll have enough to do just getting the thing sharp and working properly before he starts worrying about fine details
 

jimi43

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2009
Messages
6,921
Reaction score
2
Location
Kent - the Garden of England
yetloh":k0jrwahf said:
The 60s were when it all really started to go wrong for Record and Stanley with the qualty going down the pan, so not an obviously good vintage, although it is probably fair to say it got even worse in the 70s.

Jim
+1

In fact I would go further and say the rot started earlier.

However, any older vintage is preferable to the rubbish being produced as "stock" today. Getting a good newer one is more a case of luck than design.

Within reason, as long as the mouth and two ends are in the same plane ( :roll: ) or near as damn it...the rest of the sole can be as concave as you like. Convexity is another matter entirely!

Cheers

Jim
 

yetloh

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2008
Messages
1,378
Reaction score
19
Location
Sussex
jimi43":rgnx7vcg said:
Within reason, as long as the mouth and two ends are in the same plane ( :roll: ) or near as damn it...the rest of the sole can be as concave as you like. Convexity is another matter entirely!

Cheers

Jim
Couldn't agree more, Jim. It's just a matter of how much effort you want to put in, and that often comes down to whether you are a toolmaker or a furniture maker at heart. I am the latter and i suspect you are the former.

Jim
 

dickster2112

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2011
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Location
Malvern
Jacob":2hdha2vc said:
Complete waste of time, don't bother, rarely necessary. Ten thou "at the back" is nothing; being slightly convex over the length is perfectly OK.

"Flattening" is very fashionable but wastes a lot of time and could spoil tools in the process.

Surely if the back is not reasonably flat over its length then it effectively shortens the sole as regards planing long edges.

Would this not be like trying to true an edge with a smoother?
 

Jacob

Pint of bass, porkpie, and packet of crisps please
Joined
7 Jul 2010
Messages
18,036
Reaction score
769
Location
Derbyshire
dickster2112":3jvhqrxd said:
Jacob":3jvhqrxd said:
Complete waste of time, don't bother, rarely necessary. Ten thou "at the back" is nothing; being slightly convex over the length is perfectly OK.

"Flattening" is very fashionable but wastes a lot of time and could spoil tools in the process.

Surely if the back is not reasonably flat over its length then it effectively shortens the sole as regards planing long edges.

Would this not be like trying to true an edge with a smoother?
Well yes if a plane was seriously out. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, it's just that flattening has become priority number one with plane fiddlers, but is often unnecessary IMHO.
 

Mike Wingate

Established Member
Joined
18 Oct 2009
Messages
852
Reaction score
0
Location
Altrincham
If you know what you are doing , flatten away, also flatten the face of the frog and claen off the paint on the underside of the frog and the main body casting to get a metal to metal contact. Get a nice stiff Quangsheng chipbreaker and put a good edge on your blade, after working up to a 1200 diamond stone , I use an 8000 ceramic stone which really makes a difference, then a bit of a strop with gold or green compound on leather gives me a great blade to plane with.
 

wcndave

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2008
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
4
Location
Truden, Italy
Does anyone have pictures of what you use to flatten a plane (regardless of what extent you take it to).

In my mind i am picturing lots of very fine grit paper or a HUGE stone of some form. I am looking into getting some old planes off the bay and sorting them uot a little however want to know what type of flattening kit investment i might b letting myself in for...
 

MIGNAL

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2005
Messages
2,699
Reaction score
20
Location
W.York's
That Plane is older than the 60's. Try sharpening the blade and see how it cuts, it just might not be a bad idea!
Strange but I have a 70's Stanley N0. 5.5 that works superb and it's had very little done to it. The only thing that might set it apart is the old thin Acorn blade - one of the best blades I have!
 

No skills

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
2,559
Reaction score
1
Location
Hanging by my fingertips
Should you get a plane that actually needs flattening then a reasonable sized flat surface and some abrasive paper is a good start, I would imagine some on here would recomend some float glass or a piece of machined stone (granite offcut etc) for a flat surface. For cheapness a bit of mdf would prolly do (check what ever you use with a straight edge and some feeler gauge), just make sure your abrasive goes on flat with no ripples.

Anything much beyond that is for people that just like to polish things :) ( dons flame suit and stands back....)
 

Cheshirechappie

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2012
Messages
4,899
Reaction score
207
Location
Cheshire
There's a couple of reasons for a plane sole being out of flat.

The first is the release of casting stresses. As a casting cools from molten, it wants to contract. If the mould it's in prevents the casting from moving, internal stresses build up. Good practice is to stress-relieve the casting before machining by heating it to about 600C and allowing it to cool very slowly (makers like Clifton and LN do this, but it's an extra operation, and therefore an extra cost.) If it isn't done, the stresses release themselves over several months, distorting the casting slightly. It used to be the practice to 'season' castings by stacking them in the yard for a year or so before machining, but no manufacturer can bear the capital tie-up that entails these days, and anyway, annealing is more certain.

The other reason is wear due to prolonged, heavy use.

The good news for you is that since the plane is at least 40 years old, the casting will now be stable, so if you do flatten it, it will stay flat.

The usual advice is to apply a straightedge to the sole of the plane, and sight with a good light-source behind the straightedge. If there is contact at the toe, at the front and back of the mouth, and at the heel, all is well. Slight hollows between the toe and mouth, and between the mouth and heel, don't matter much. Humps would, though, and would have to be flattened out.

Try sharpening the iron and seeing if the plane will a) take a consistent heavy shaving, and b) perhaps more tellingly, take a gossamer-thin shaving with the plane set very fine. If it does, all is well. If it won't take a fine shaving (with a razor-sharp, fine-set iron) then flattening the sole probably is needed. But if the plane works to your satisfaction - well, don't fix what ain't broken!

One method is to use a piece of float glass (most flat glass is float glass these days - it's made by floating molten glass on a bed of molten tin) layed on a flat bench, with coarse emery cloth glued to it. Work the plane on this (iron in, but fully retracted) until toe/mouth/heel show even abrasion, then change to a finer grade of emery and ditto repeato. Keep working through the grades until you get a polish - and a polished sole does work better on the wood. The hard work is the first (coarse) grade - something like 60 grit to start with. If you don't glue the emery down, it rucks up and abrades the toe-end excessively.

I've only ever flattened short-bodied planes, but didn't find it too onerous a process.

Hope that helps!
 

wcndave

Established Member
Joined
5 Oct 2008
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
4
Location
Truden, Italy
Helps very much.

Was thinking i needed one of those veritas lapping planes, silicon carbide grits, etc...

Emery cloth i can do ;-)
 

bugbear

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2004
Messages
13,074
Reaction score
1
Location
North Suffolk
wcndave":1so4ty6d said:
Helps very much.

Was thinking i needed one of those veritas lapping planes, silicon carbide grits, etc...

Emery cloth i can do ;-)
I put a lot of thought and effort into flattening at one time; here's my story and conclusions, from my (defunct) website.

Narrative version:

http://web.archive.org/web/200905291005 ... atten.html

Cleaned up, definitive (hah!) version:

http://web.archive.org/web/200904140443 ... heory.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200904140443 ... ctice.html

BugBear
 

Sawyer

Established Member
Joined
7 May 2011
Messages
581
Reaction score
1
Location
France
Before even thinking about flatting, &c. the first thing I'd do is sharpen it up and see how it planes: chances are, it will be fine.
If not, try investigating, but if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Much great work over the centuries has been done with wooden planes, untouched by feeler guages.
 
Top