Next steps on rotten windows (beginner)

[louisbean]

Hi all,

I'm a fairly new woodworker so be gentle!

I've recently bought a flat, a conversion from an Edwardian vicarage. it has the most beautiful casement windows with fanlights (about 10 pairs), but they're not in great condition. There's quite a lot of rot and the previous owner did some bodge jobs which just haven't lasted.

We can't afford to get everything renovated right now (quotes are coming in at around 10K) so I want to do a little at a time, possibly trying to repair the simpler ones myself just to keep them going for long enough till we have the money, and paying per window sooner for the ones that are really gone.

I'll probably get started next year as we're coming to the winter, but as an experiment I did strip one of the windows down, see the attached pics (sorry - the forum will only let me attach really low quality images)

As you can see, this has been previously bodged and a lot of rot has got in. I want to fix this up enough at least so that it'll be ok for a year or two. The bottom left hand corner I've already done - I took out the rotten wood, hardened it, filled and sanded with two parter and it looks great.

The other vertical parts I'd like to fill in with but I'm not sure what to do with them - for now should I just bring them down to the piece at the bottom, making it continuous and flat at the front? Does it matter if there's a void behind them or is it just a matter of making sure there's a flat surface to keep the water out? The joiner doesn't seem to have connected them at all to the bottom part, which I think is a bit odd. Also I can't see how to put the putty back on to the bottom piece to hold the glass in as he's put a little curved piece on top of it (a bit hard to see in the photo).

Any advice would be really appreciated!

Louis

 

[Jacob]

These look like top class Edwardian windows (early 1900s) very well detailed e.g. the bevel on the stone cill
The only satisfactory way to restore them is to take the frames out completely and re-build / replace as necessary. Anything else is a bodge more or less.
I'd highly recommend linseed oil paints ("Allback") as modern paints don't work well on old joinery and are a major cause of failure: What happens is that 100+ year old joinery in good order is stripped and carefully repainted with modern paints which peel off and let water in causing rot and drastically shortening the life of the joinery.
This may have been the problem on your windows. That stuck on rail won't help either - earlier bodge jobs making things worse!.

 

[deema]

Just as Jackb states, the date of the windows should mean that they will have been glued with animal glue together possible with pegged mortice and tenon joints. Remove the windows, strip the paint and then it it's fairly simple if necessary to get them apart. I use a drill to mark each joint so I can reassemble correctly, one small hole, two small holes etc, this stops any other form of marking getting sanded off. A 2 or 3 mm hole drilled about 5mm deep works well and is easy to fill at the end.
Be prepared however with lots of photos at each stage of taking them out / apart. Take lots of measurements before starting to remove. In the worst case scenario, when trying to get them out / strip and restore you may find that there is absolutely nothing left worth salvaging (I should say it's quicker and less time consuming to make new than repair)

In lots of cases, rather than disassembling the joints, a practical solution is to remove all of the rotten stuff, and then inject west epoxy resin into the gaps to strengthen it back up adding any replacement pieces of wood in a similar manner. You need to let it fully dry out before reprinting or giving a coat of west all over before painting. We used to used to paint west on wooden boats before varnish or paint to seal the wood and prevent any issues due to water ingress.

 

[louisbean]

Hi guys, very useful stuff - thank you! As I say I'd like to get them redone properly next year but can't afford it for now, and I think the steps above are a bit over my head currently. I'll try to find someone who really knows their onions. In the meantime do you have any suggestions for a temporary fix that'll keep them from getting any worse over the winter? I was going to do some simple fills and a repaint in the meantime. Any advice on how to go about this would be grateful appreciated.


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[RobinBHM]

You could try one of the specialist products for repairing timber,

http://www.timber-repair.co.uk/order_diydoc.htm

Ive seen local chippies do repairs with timberbuild quite successfully. These are much better than the standard 2 pack filler.

Unfortunately the repair cost, if done by a professional is likely to cost about half to two thirds of the cost of new windows.

 

[louisbean]

Hi robin, that's great - will check it out. I guess the main thing for me is where the filler goes and what the shaping of it needs to do, just to do a patch job (see my first message)


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[Mike.S]

Looks like a fancier version of the wooden casement windows in my 1930s house - which over the years I've spent many days repairing/replacing! As others have said: maintenance is the key, particularly the right sealing (e.g. putty) and finishes. Nearly all my window problems have been due to poor maintenace (by me )

Unless my eyes deceive me it looks like someone's put a complete horizontal bottom rail across the two lower windows, instead of a bottom rail each :? Then maybe a quadrant bead at the bottom of the glass instead of putty (or the correct bead)?

But to address your immediate concern, the most important task is to stop water getting into the timber, particularly at horizontal surfaces (rails, especially at bottom of the glass, where it tends to accumulate). For simplicity, cost and effectiveness I would consider fixing clear acrylic sheet over the entire window frame - with small air gaps at the edges. This would keep the rain out whilst still allowing air to circulate and stopany rot progressing. That'll keep the windows intact over the winter whilst you research a 'proper' repair. That would stop you opening the windows though.....

 

[louisbean]

Hi mike, thank you. I have something similar set up at the moment with battens and some plastic sheeting. (The windows don't open anyway because that bottom part has been replaced). I guess I can leave it like that over the winter.

As a follow up, bearing in mind I have littke skill in this area (but keen to learn) what's the best way of getting these repaired? I'm not happy with the attitude of the window restoration companies I've spoken to (they tend to push for replacements, so busy you feel like you're in a sausage machine and are on top of that incredibly expensive). Are there any other options? I'm in London if that helps. What I'd really like is someone to guide me through the process and for me to learn as I go so that I can keep the maintenance up myself. Any ideas?


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[Jacob]

... it looks like someone's put a complete horizontal bottom rail across the two lower windows, instead of a bottom rail each :? ......

Should be one piece through. I wonder if it's a badly fitted replacement for the original - it looks too deep 6" ish where you'd expect 4 max, and it isn't well attached. Making it deeper might have been to allow for trimming off rotten ends of the stiles.

If you are really keen on learning how to do it properly there's a longish learning curve. One way to get going might be to take one out complete (a small one?) and dissect it - making sure you don't spoil it too much in the process. Better than a book but you need the books too - many oldish carpentry/joinery books are excellent, Ellis etc.

 

[Mike.S]

As a follow up, bearing in mind I have littke skill in this area (but keen to learn) what's the best way of getting these repaired? I'm not happy with the attitude of the window restoration companies I've spoken to (they tend to push for replacements, so busy you feel like you're in a sausage machine and are on top of that incredibly expensive). Are there any other options? I'm in London if that helps.

I sympathise. I had need of replacement french doors and a casement window. I found most 'professionals' never returned my calls; of those that did, one had a look and immediately said he couldn't be competitive; another two encouraged adapting off the shelf dowel jointed french doors (aarrghh); and one, very knowledgeable, professional whom I'd have happily have given the job to, quoted a ridiculous price! So I made them myself. I'm in SW London (Worcester Park) and generally I find tradesmen are busy and thus liable to seek short cuts and/or f*c* off prices!

I'm just an enthusiastic DIYer, so not really qualified to advise but there's plenty on this forum who are. Having said that, if you're anywhere near me and want to view the replacement windows I made and what's entailed I'm happy to help as much as I can. Just send a PM.

Jacob - I'm intrigued by your response. To my eye those two large bottom windows in the photo are hinged (therefore openers) and would need individual bottom rails (c.100mm deep) to join their stiles/support the glass. There would normally then be a continuous rail (the main frame) underneath those rails but instead there looks like what's just a quadrant bead. Have I got this wrong (entirely possible :shock: ) or is there a picture of an unbodged window you can post/link to too show what you mean?

 

[Jacob]

.....
Jacob - I'm intrigued by your response. To my eye those two large bottom windows in the photo are hinged (therefore openers) and would need individual bottom rails (c.100mm deep) to join their stiles/support the glass. There would normally then be a continuous rail (the main frame) underneath those rails but instead there looks like what's just a quadrant bead. Have I got this wrong (entirely possible :shock: ) or is there a picture of an unbodged window you can post/link to too show what you mean?

Yes Mike you are right. I wasn't looking closely enough.
The two bottom openers have lost their bottom rails - hence the extra wide rail - replacing the rails from the lights and also the bottom rail of the frame. Some serious bodging gone on here!
Sometimes non opening lights are made identical to openers but just fixed without hinges etc, just for the sake of a tidy symmetrical appearance - so it's possible that either or both of them were fixed originally

 

[deema]

The revel into which the frame sits will be about 1/2" deep, this means that the window frame is removed from the inside. The plaster around the window will need to be removed, usually the frames are braked in, the head of the widows frame, the rail along the top is normally left extra long and incorporated into the run of bricks. This will need to be cut to get out. There will possibly also be nails down the side, but it's unlikely. After removing the plaster cut the nails or any other fastenings between the wall and the frame. Ensure you can run a knife all the way around the frame before you try to remove it.

The other thing to look out for is that in older houses the top of the window is sometimes also used as the lintel. You may need to add supports to avoid an unfortunate opportunity developing.

 

[Mike.S]

Sometimes non opening lights are made identical to openers but just fixed without hinges etc, just for the sake of a tidy symmetrical appearance - so it's possible that either or both of them were fixed originally

Thanks for clarifying - thought I'd got my eyeballs/knowledge crossed!

Yes, I have those types of windows - including openers I've 'bodged' to fixed where there were already enough openers (hammer).

So Louis, definitely some serious bodging gone on - hopefully you can find one of your windows that at least has the original design intact. Research (books and internet) will yield a lot but if you're not too far and want a chat then my previous offer stands.

 

[louisbean]

Hi guys, thanks so much for these responses and yes Mike I will definitely pm you. I need to read all this carefully but in the meantime, you can see the other windows here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/82y2jlgx124i ... BPQua?dl=0

To be honest I think proper refurbs are way out of my skill set (I've done an intro to carpentry course and that's about it) but if some of the windows needed simple repairs i could definitely handle that I think / e.g filling bits here and there - I mainly need some guidance on where this is appropriate.


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[louisbean]

You can see from the link above that we have two openers on our bay which is fine - and you can see the original design there. I'm quite happy to keep the shape we have now to be honest, we just can't afford 6-10k right now to make them all perfect (Although I would love to!!)


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