Newcomer to Woodwork: Questions on projects and tools

[TheWizardofOdds]

As a complete newcomer/beginner to Woodwork I've decided that I would like to go down the using hand tools only route.

My ultimate aim is to make furniture I think, such as bookcases, tables, anything really for around the house that would look good, save money and come with a satisfaction that I've made it myself.

I suppose my biggest problem is that I have no knowledge at all of DIY let alone Woodwork. I also will be starting with no tools to speak of.

My plan is to make a couple of sawhorses as my first project, and then move on to making my own bench. I see this as being very much a long game and am in absolutely no rush so I'd like to get the preparation right.

My two main questions at the moment are:

1. Which sawhorse to make?

I have seen a couple of simple projects that use minimal tools, however, being big on aesthetics I've found a site that shows you how to make what the author describes as trestles from a japanese bench. Or words to that effect. I think they are very nice indeed and look like they'd last a long time. My concern is that it could well be beyond me to put together. As I said though, I'm in no rush. It takes as long as it takes. What do you think?

http://makeprojects.com/Project/Workhorses/572/3

2. Which saw? :lol:

I've read plenty about saws, from ripsaws to crosscut saws, tenon etc. It would appear that for my initial project or sooner or later I'd need possibly rip and crosscut. I'm thinking of going down the japanese route though. They seem well priced. What's peoples' experience of them? I understand that they cut on the backstroke and also that one saw can be used for both cuts? I can't remember the kit I'd need exactly to make the sawhorse I've highlighted but it involves learning how to make a mortise and tenon (?) would I need any additional saws?

I feel like I have so many questions to ask, but that's enough for just now. Any guidance/thoughts/advice would be much appreciated.

 

[orchard]

Welcome to the fold dude
I'm a noob too, so not much use to you soz. Have you checked out Paul Sellers' blog/website? That seems to be apt, if you can't find it pm me and I'll post a url in the morn for you

 

[orchard]

Although they're based in Germany, check out www.fine-tools.com for kit. I like them.

 

[AndyT]

As a beginner you need tools which you know are going to work right - only when you have more experience you will understand when a tool is not performing as it should.

So, for sawing purposes I recommend you buy two cheap, widely available hardpoint saws. They will be properly sharp and reliable. You can concentrate on learning to use them. Don't buy the very cheapest Chinese rubbish but something like these - under £9 and £11 at B&Q:

They will be fine to get you started.

I would not suggest starting with Japanese style saws - for one thing, I think they will be a poor match with your desire to use saw horses, which are designed with western style saws in mind.

If you fancy trying to make some proper trad saw horses, then Jacob's page is a good guide - but you might need to have a bench first, so your first project might need to be something simpler!

Paul Sellers is quite good for showing beginners how to make things with only a few basic tools, though some of his ideas are a bit unusual.

A lot of diy books miss out on how to measure, mark out and size your work accurately. Jeff Gorman's site is good on this (and lots more besides).

 

[marcros]

if your plans are to ultimately make furniture, start with making a decent bench. You will need it, and it will give you some good practice on joints etc. It neednt take a great deal of time to construct- particularly if you bought planed timber, and laminated together boards to form the tenons/rebates for the front rail. Mine is a bit over engineered because I had a source of cheap ash- the plans only used 2" thick legs I think.

my bench, based on the chris schwarz English bench is in effect 2 tressles/2 legged saw horses, with a top rail front and back to connect them.

my-new-workbench-t59670.html?hilit=bench

it is tarted up with a few extras- a vice, few dog holes etc.

 

[TheWizardofOdds]

Welcome to the fold dude
I'm a noob too, so not much use to you soz. Have you checked out Paul Sellers' blog/website? That seems to be apt, if you can't find it pm me and I'll post a url in the morn for you

Thanks for the welcome.

I've been to the Seller's site and I think it's going to be very helpful in the long run.Cheers.

Although they're based in Germany, check out http://www.fine-tools.com for kit. I like them.

Another good site there. I've seen another one on here in another thread from germany, if it's competitive I'd definitely buy from there.

As a beginner you need tools which you know are going to work right - only when you have more experience you will understand when a tool is not performing as it should.

So, for sawing purposes I recommend you buy two cheap, widely available hardpoint saws. They will be properly sharp and reliable. You can concentrate on learning to use them. Don't buy the very cheapest Chinese rubbish but something like these - under £9 and £11 at B&Q:

They will be fine to get you started.

I would not suggest starting with Japanese style saws - for one thing, I think they will be a poor match with your desire to use saw horses, which are designed with western style saws in mind.

If you fancy trying to make some proper trad saw horses, then Jacob's page is a good guide - but you might need to have a bench first, so your first project might need to be something simpler!

Paul Sellers is quite good for showing beginners how to make things with only a few basic tools, though some of his ideas are a bit unusual.

A lot of diy books miss out on how to measure, mark out and size your work accurately. Jeff Gorman's site is good on this (and lots more besides).

Excellent info there. Thanks. What are the saws that you've shown me? So I know when I go to B&Q, can't go wrong with those prices and I take your point about the japanese saws. Is one a rip/crosscut and the other a tenon?

I'll check out the Jeff Gorman site and saw horses.

if your plans are to ultimately make furniture, start with making a decent bench. You will need it, and it will give you some good practice on joints etc. It neednt take a great deal of time to construct- particularly if you bought planed timber, and laminated together boards to form the tenons/rebates for the front rail. Mine is a bit over engineered because I had a source of cheap ash- the plans only used 2" thick legs I think.

my bench, based on the chris schwarz English bench is in effect 2 tressles/2 legged saw horses, with a top rail front and back to connect them.

my-new-workbench-t59670.html?hilit=bench

it is tarted up with a few extras- a vice, few dog holes etc.

Thanks, I would be best making saw horses first before a bench though? I don't currently have a bench. Except a kids picnic one that is. :twisted:

 

[AndyT]

Both saws are mainly for crosscutting but will work (slowly) for ripping - if you ever need to. Unless you propose to start by buying whole boards (=slices of tree) you won't need a dedicated rip saw.

 

[marcros]

i didnt have any work surface when i made my bench, except a table saw. a workmate or similar would have been useful, and i couldnt have done it if the timber was not planed and thicknessed ready. Mortising was fun, but i managed. Once you have the 2 leg sections done, the rails make it free standing, and you have most of a bench made. My firedoor top just laid on the leg section for a few weeks whilst i did other bits to it.

With a bit of thought, you could make the leg sections from 2 heavy duty saw horses with 3 legs each- 2 at the back, and the final one vertical at the front- rebated for the rail. These would then be freestanding enough to use as you construct the rest.

Dont slavishly follow a plan- think if it needs to be adapted to your needs. and check the hight is about right for you, particularly if you are going to incorporate them into your bench.

Saw horses are pretty useful though, so if you make one or two before your bench, you will find good use for them. I dont doubt that some good furniture has been made by somebody on here using a couple of saw horses and a sheet of something clamped on as a top.

 

[morfa]

If you've not got it yet, the difference is:

Rip - along the grain
Crosscut - across the grain

You'll need both styles. In fact a full set of saws seems to involve about 5/6. However you can get away with a lot less. I got Japanese saws for my first saws. These ones from www.workshopheaven.com are good:

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... _Grip.html
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... andle.html < not in stock at the moment tho

As for sawhorses, I'd recommend a mix of a Black and Decker workmate and a sawhorse. I made one from the plans here:

http://www.woodshopdude.com/

It was fairly complex, but if you think about it and do things slowly and carefully it's hard to really muck it up. Of course I managed to muck it up, but thankfully, it all works ok and it's a good sawhorse. I went the folding route cause I don't have loads of space. Those Japanese ones look utterly lovely tho.

I'm currently building a bench and I'm doing all the planing ontop of that and a workmate, I have to sit on top of the wood to stop it from moving around. I'm building something similar to this:

http://picnicpark.org/keith/woodworking ... nch-ne.pdf
and this
http://paulsellers.com/series/building-a-workbench/ (videos here - http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulSellers ... ture=watch )

Personally as with anything, I'd keep it simple, especially at the start. Get a tool kit, buy a load of wood and get going. Again Paul Sellers site has a list of tools on his site, but you can get away with out buying loads I've found. Buying second hand tools is often a good way to get cheap/sensibly priced stuff. Alf has a list of second hand tool dealers on her site:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/tooldealers.html

If not there's always the bay of e.

 

[DTR]

When I started, my workbench was my first project. I bought a cheap workmate and borrowed another, then built a bench top from prepared timber. Then the top went across the two workmates so I had a bench to build the leg assemblies on.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

A pair of saw-horses would make a pretty good, subsequently useful, first project. However, match the saw-horse to the type of saw you buy. Western saws (at any rate, the longer, backless variety), are best used on a saw-horse of about knee height. The makeprojects ones look more suited to use with Japanese-type saws, and they also look quite challenging as a first project - if you're new to DIY, mortice and tenon joints may not be the best first job. If you simplify the construction such that you just cut the wood to length and fix the parts together with screws, you'll get a finished, useful job much quicker.

 

[lanemaux]

Just to go on from AndyT's recommendation of Irwin hardpoint saws as a start point , if you have your heart set on "going Japanese " , Irwin also produce pull type saws in their line . Mine have been a hoot to use. Takes getting used to a different way of working , but they cut like mad with little effort once you get rolling.

 

[Jacob]

+1 for Paul Sellers (very practical) and simple (cheap) tools, not Japanese.
Those saw horses are a bit fussy and ornamental IMHO. I'd look at the simplest of these for instance.
Best source of info on design and construction is stuff itself. Look at all the furniture in your house and everywhere you can. Pull it apart (if no one is looking). By and large the real stuff is different in interesting ways, from what you read in books.

PS just noticed that Andy has put in a link to my saw horses http://owdman.co.uk/howto/howto2.htm
For a first effort I'd copy the basic design but just have butted an/or lap joints and nails/screws. Keep it simple!

 

[TheWizardofOdds]

Both saws are mainly for crosscutting but will work (slowly) for ripping - if you ever need to. Unless you propose to start by buying whole boards (=slices of tree) you won't need a dedicated rip saw.

They'll do me fine, great price too.

i didnt have any work surface when i made my bench, except a table saw. a workmate or similar would have been useful, and i couldnt have done it if the timber was not planed and thicknessed ready. Mortising was fun, but i managed. Once you have the 2 leg sections done, the rails make it free standing, and you have most of a bench made. My firedoor top just laid on the leg section for a few weeks whilst i did other bits to it.

With a bit of thought, you could make the leg sections from 2 heavy duty saw horses with 3 legs each- 2 at the back, and the final one vertical at the front- rebated for the rail. These would then be freestanding enough to use as you construct the rest.

Dont slavishly follow a plan- think if it needs to be adapted to your needs. and check the hight is about right for you, particularly if you are going to incorporate them into your bench.

Saw horses are pretty useful though, so if you make one or two before your bench, you will find good use for them. I dont doubt that some good furniture has been made by somebody on here using a couple of saw horses and a sheet of something clamped on as a top.

I take your point about following plans, I may need to adapt things as I go along.

Can you buy wood already thicknessed generally? I can see me having a hell of a time with that using a plane.

If you've not got it yet, the difference is:

Rip - along the grain
Crosscut - across the grain

You'll need both styles. In fact a full set of saws seems to involve about 5/6. However you can get away with a lot less. I got Japanese saws for my first saws. These ones from http://www.workshopheaven.com are good:

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... _Grip.html
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Gyo ... andle.html < not in stock at the moment tho

As for sawhorses, I'd recommend a mix of a Black and Decker workmate and a sawhorse. I made one from the plans here:

http://www.woodshopdude.com/

It was fairly complex, but if you think about it and do things slowly and carefully it's hard to really muck it up. Of course I managed to muck it up, but thankfully, it all works ok and it's a good sawhorse. I went the folding route cause I don't have loads of space. Those Japanese ones look utterly lovely tho.

I'm currently building a bench and I'm doing all the planing ontop of that and a workmate, I have to sit on top of the wood to stop it from moving around. I'm building something similar to this:

http://picnicpark.org/keith/woodworking ... nch-ne.pdf
and this
http://paulsellers.com/series/building-a-workbench/ (videos here - http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulSellers ... ture=watch )

Personally as with anything, I'd keep it simple, especially at the start. Get a tool kit, buy a load of wood and get going. Again Paul Sellers site has a list of tools on his site, but you can get away with out buying loads I've found. Buying second hand tools is often a good way to get cheap/sensibly priced stuff. Alf has a list of second hand tool dealers on her site:

http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/tooldealers.html

If not there's always the bay of e.

Some great info there, thanks very much. I was thinking about the japanese saws to try and save some money but the saws from B&Q are very well priced so I might try those and see how I get on. I can see me coming back to try the japanese stuff in the future. I love most things japanese, they have an eye for detail. The japanese style saw horses are something else, I would love to say I have made something like that but I've a feeling it might be a step too far for me at the moment.

When I started, my workbench was my first project. I bought a cheap workmate and borrowed another, then built a bench top from prepared timber. Then the top went across the two workmates so I had a bench to build the leg assemblies on.

I would like to build a bench early on but do have reservations simply because I've never made anything and it's quite daunting when you have no teacher. Plenty of great sources of information on here and in books but nothing beats face to face advice. I'm going to try and make the saw horses and then put something on top to try and give me a stable surface to begin the bench. I'd like to get the Workmates too but I have to tight a budget and will have to do without.

A pair of saw-horses would make a pretty good, subsequently useful, first project. However, match the saw-horse to the type of saw you buy. Western saws (at any rate, the longer, backless variety), are best used on a saw-horse of about knee height. The makeprojects ones look more suited to use with Japanese-type saws, and they also look quite challenging as a first project - if you're new to DIY, mortice and tenon joints may not be the best first job. If you simplify the construction such that you just cut the wood to length and fix the parts together with screws, you'll get a finished, useful job much quicker.

I think that's the way to go. My heart says make the japanese ones and then pull up a chair, drink a beer, and just admire the beauty of them!...but my head says make a pair of simple ones and crack on with the bench.

Just to go on from AndyT's recommendation of Irwin hardpoint saws as a start point , if you have your heart set on "going Japanese " , Irwin also produce pull type saws in their line . Mine have been a hoot to use. Takes getting used to a different way of working , but they cut like mad with little effort once you get rolling.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, I think I'll go with the Irwin numbers first and then come back to the japanese ones one day. oh decisions... :?

+1 for Paul Sellers (very practical) and simple (cheap) tools, not Japanese.
Those saw horses are a bit fussy and ornamental IMHO. I'd look at the simplest of these for instance.
Best source of info on design and construction is stuff itself. Look at all the furniture in your house and everywhere you can. Pull it apart (if no one is looking). By and large the real stuff is different in interesting ways, from what you read in books.

PS just noticed that Andy has put in a link to my saw horses http://owdman.co.uk/howto/howto2.htm
For a first effort I'd copy the basic design but just have butted an/or lap joints and nails/screws. Keep it simple!

I have definitely started to look more closely at furniture and any wooden constructions I see in general much more closely.

Paul Sellers is certainly admired and ot's not difficult to see why. I'm going to spend a lot of time today on his site and draw up a list of essential tools.

 

[bugbear]

If you can get hold of it, Roy Underhill on the the legendary Woodwright's Shop showed the making of a really elegant and simple saw horse.

In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done).

BugBear

 

[gomeraman]

My first job would be (and was many years ago) to make a sturdy bench out of sawn stock timber. This gives lots of practice at square cross-cutting with a hard-point saw and then planing of the top surface. Don't use thin timbers but big beefy chunks that are bolted together so the whole thing can be easily dismantled when you move. A heavy work bench will give you much more control when doing finer jobs later on than the silly flimsy things sold in most shops that move when you tighten the vice or make a joint with a chisel (most DIY plans you'll find are like this too, and much more elaborate than you need). So use the motto "Thick is bright, thin is dim".

 

[cadders75]

I agree with buying the standard hardpoint saws, I've got 3 with differing tooth sizes, however the Irwin Tenon saw I have is rubbish, it will not cut straight and just seems to be a difficult to use piece of kit, the finish it leaves is also bloody awful leaving a lot more work to clean up any tenons, the Bahco Gents saw is the same

I have 3 Japanese pull saws that I use for small scale work, and some ripping. I got the initial Shark saws from a bargain bin in B&Poo and I've brought a set of 3 from Rutlands if you want to try one on the cheap try this one from Toolstation. They are harder to master but once you do I find them a lot easier to use than a tenon saw, finish is much better too.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+To ... d70/p17458

My 1st bench was a couple of simple trestles like Jacobs and a ladder frame made out of 2x4 covered in cheap Shutter ply with a hardboard top, it's still alive now after 5 years of being used as an outside workstation left out in all weathers, mind you the hardboard is long gone by now.

 

[TheWizardofOdds]

If you can get hold of it, Roy Underhill on the the legendary Woodwright's Shop showed the making of a really elegant and simple saw horse.
In order to avoid the ridiculous maths of compound angles, the first housing in the body was used as a template, marking out the cuts for both the top (obvious) and bottom of all the legs (each leg was installed upside down, and the compound cut needed so it hit the floor flush was done). BugBear

I've taken a look at that, it's very nice indeed. I've seen the plans but not the show, I'll try to get the show. You can't beat seeing it done, plans intimidate me! :?

My first job would be (and was many years ago) to make a sturdy bench out of sawn stock timber. This gives lots of practice at square cross-cutting with a hard-point saw and then planing of the top surface. Don't use thin timbers but big beefy chunks that are bolted together so the whole thing can be easily dismantled when you move. A heavy work bench will give you much more control when doing finer jobs later on than the silly flimsy things sold in most shops that move when you tighten the vice or make a joint with a chisel (most DIY plans you'll find are like this too, and much more elaborate than you need). So use the motto "Thick is bright, thin is dim".

That's a good point. I've moved four times in less than three years. Also, It would be easy to get the timber uniform and ready to go but there is definately a lot for me to learn in the actual preparation. I don't know if I'd trust myself though to plane even close to level initially.

I agree with buying the standard hardpoint saws, I've got 3 with differing tooth sizes, however the Irwin Tenon saw I have is rubbish, it will not cut straight and just seems to be a difficult to use piece of kit, the finish it leaves is also bloody awful leaving a lot more work to clean up any tenons, the Bahco Gents saw is the same

I have 3 Japanese pull saws that I use for small scale work, and some ripping. I got the initial Shark saws from a bargain bin in B&Poo and I've brought a set of 3 from Rutlands if you want to try one on the cheap try this one from Toolstation. They are harder to master but once you do I find them a lot easier to use than a tenon saw, finish is much better too.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Hand+To ... d70/p17458

My 1st bench was a couple of simple trestles like Jacobs and a ladder frame made out of 2x4 covered in cheap Shutter ply with a hardboard top, it's still alive now after 5 years of being used as an outside workstation left out in all weathers, mind you the hardboard is long gone by now.

So what hardpoint saws do you use? I've heard as many good reviews for both western and japanese saws as I have bad.

 

[TheWizardofOdds]

http://woodworking.about.com/od/shopequipmentsupplies/ss/woodSawhorses.htm

I've more or less decided to go with making these stackable sawhorses as my first project. It's as simple a build as I can get, is of course space saving and although I love those japanese numbers I think I could get an approximation of these together. This year. :lol:

I had a look online at the usual hardware stores that sell timber just to see what was what with types of wood and price. Now maybe it's me being thick but I couldn't find eight feet two by four? The timber is cut into forty nine and forty seven inch pieces so thats no big deal but no two by four? My aim is to get the wood from a local saw mill if they'll sell small amounts of wood to non trade anyway.

So the thinking is to get the saw horses together then chuck a big bit of wood on top and get started on making a workbench. Man, there are a lot of nice benches out there. One thing at a time I suppose. I could just spend the rest of my days happily making benches.

I know that there are certain things that I don't have to spend the world on like tape measures and rulers for instance. So I don't have to agonize over every purchase but some things have to be done right don't they? From what I can gather the likes of planes, chisels and saws should be the best you can stretch to.

I'm not going to get into the whole which chisel should I buy dilemma? But I will ask, Is it better to buy say a set of four like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" chisels at sixty quid or buy one sexy 1/2 " at sixty quid and add to that when I can?

 

[Jacob]

.......Now maybe it's me being thick but I couldn't find eight feet two by four? The timber is cut into forty nine and forty seven inch pieces so thats no big deal but no two by four? My aim is to get the wood from a local saw mill if they'll sell small amounts of wood to non trade anyway.

Just buy a few lengths of 2x4 structural timber from a builders merchant, for your saw horses. Cheapest so doesn't matter too much if you get it wrong. Always buy much more than you need then you have some leftover bits to fiddle about with.

.....
I'm not going to get into the whole which chisel should I buy dilemma? But I will ask, Is it better to buy say a set of four like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1" chisels at sixty quid or buy one sexy 1/2 " at sixty quid and add to that when I can?

Buy cheapies or second hand - you don't get much more for the money if you buy expensive ones. Those four sizes are good, doesn't have to be a set. I bought a £15 set of 6 from Axminster* and there is nothing wrong with them, except they don't look very nice.

NB don't go japanese - the tools are expensive and saws are unsharpenable- for enthusiasts only!

PS* I see they've gone up a bit. Still cheap. There are cheaper available. 2nd hand chisels are often only £2 or so on ebay. Spend the money you save on wood - that's the important bit, any old tools will do (within reason).