New plane is bladeless

[Chipmonk]

Hi there,

I just bought a 'vintage' Record 778 plans from an ebay seller. It was supposed to be brand new, boxed, unopened, but it's arrived and has clearly been opened (the advert pics showed it open on table) and the blade is missing. Everything else is in perfect order. The seller is trying to tell me that these planes don't come with blades and she has 3 other unopened boxes that don't have blades in. She's been very polite, so I don't want to call her a liar outright, but this is plainly BS. I've bought a few planes (as has my dad) and we've never had the come without blades (brand new or second hand). I said buying a plane without a blade is like buying a car without wheels, or mixer without a whisk, to which she agreed, but said the joiner in her shop says they don't come with them.

I am 99% sure she's trying to pass the buck, but want to know if anyone has any input on this. I already spent 2 hours looking for replacement blades, and suggested I'd keep it if I could find one, otherwise I'll back it.

I can still send it back if it's too much hassle, since it wasn't cheap enough to justify getting a poor quality replica blade, if that is all that is available.

1) Have you ever bought a brand new plane that didn't have a blade?
2) Do you know where I can get an original Record tungsten-steel blade for the 778? FWIW: The 078 blade won't fit a 778.

Be great if anyone can put my mind at rest on this one.

Cheers!

 

[--Tom--]

Google gives stock here:
https://www.oldtools.co.uk/products/record-rabbet-plane-blade-no-778

 

[--Tom--]

Or a Ray Iles replacement which are normally seen as better than originals ie it’s not a poor quality replacement

https://www.oldtoolstore.co.uk/repl...15---to-fit-record-778-rebate-plane-200-p.asp

 

[Chipmonk]

Google gives stock here:
https://www.oldtools.co.uk/products/record-rabbet-plane-blade-no-778

Cheers, Tom, but that place is actually out of stock. I feel like I've exhausted all the easy to find places with searches for 'record 778' and the like.

 

[Chipmonk]

Ah, that Ray Iles one is the one i've bookmarked for possible purchase. it seems to be 01 grade steel, which isn't as good as Tungsten (so I think), but is better than the bulk of replicas I've seen.

update: I should say that that link you provided to the Ray iles one doesn't go to the same RI one I thought it did. The old toolstore seems like they sell the same one you can get everywhere. None of them mention the steel composite/breakdown, so I assume the worst.

This is the RI one I found:

https://www.toolnut.co.uk/collections/planes-blades-spares/products/replacement-plane-blade-778

 

[Droogs]

I've never had a plane arrive without a blade, even if NOS unless I have specifically bought something without a blade (as i wanted the body) and it has been stated as being so.

 

[Just4Fun]

I have never heard of a new plane being supplied without a blade. My Record 778 certainly came with one.

 

[Chipmonk]

I've never had a plane arrive without a blade, even if NOS unless I have specifically bought something without a blade (as i wanted the body) and it has been stated as being so.

Thanks, Droogs. I was starting to doubt myself, but it seems like a half-pineappled attempt to get rid of some old stock.

edit: hahaha, pineappled! Nice swear replacement.

 

[Chipmonk]

OMG, I've just realised I've been conned. Looking at the image on the box, it's not even the same bloomin plane! The original Record 778 has a bare iron support exposed just behind the iron, going down to the shoe. This one cuts in (away) from the side and is painted. It's also lighter blue. I saw some 'vintage' 778s that had the raw iron side and just figured this was a different year, but the fact it doesn't even match the box is a major clue. Absolute jokers.

This is a copy and definitely not 'vintage'. Someone has re-boxed it. Grah!

 

[Trevanion]

This is a copy and definitely not 'vintage'. Someone has re-boxed it. Grah!

I reckon this is a very modern (IE in the last 5 years or so) Record Irwin 778, so it's not so much a copy as it is just a modern (cheaper bits) version of the old ones. It should come with a blade though!

 

[billw]

I have noticed that the word "vintage" is used on a lot of tool listings, often with a blatant disregard for the truth!

 

[Chipmonk]

I reckon this is a very modern (IE in the last 5 years or so) Record Irwin 778, so it's not so much a copy as it is just a modern (cheaper bits) version of the old ones. It should come with a blade though!

Cheers, mate! That's confirmed what I've been suspecting (been trying to figure out when and where it is from since last night on and off). It's clearly not even close to 'vintage' (I know that just means 'a period of high quality', but considering quality has been going downhill for decades, anything after 2000 isn't vintage to me). I wouldn't mind if it was new and high quality, but I can literally buy a new version for £15 more and get a warranty, so there's not value in this unless it is actually the vintage stuff.

The iron seems like it's probably cheap, but I can't say why. The paint is plastered on like a letterbox and the lack of blade is suspicious (despite the assertion that all 3 of their stock is like that). I've started the return just now.

 

[Chipmonk]

I have noticed that the word "vintage" is used on a lot of tool listings, often with a blatant disregard for the truth!

Amen to that! I've spent several hours now looking through this mound of horse manure and I can safely say that at least 50% of 'vintage' is either re-boxed newish stock or simply battered to bits.

 

[Lons]

Presumably you paid by paypal which would make getting a refund fairly simple even if not then ebay will sort it out. I wouldn't accept that it looks like a blatant rip off.

 

[Bod]

Cheers, mate! That's confirmed what I've been suspecting (been trying to figure out when and where it is from since last night on and off). It's clearly not even close to 'vintage' (I know that just means 'a period of high quality', but considering quality has been going downhill for decades, anything after 2000 isn't vintage to me). I wouldn't mind if it was new and high quality, but I can literally buy a new version for £15 more and get a warranty, so there's not value in this unless it is actually the vintage stuff.

The iron seems like it's probably cheap, but I can't say why. The paint is plastered on like a letterbox and the lack of blade is suspicious (despite the assertion that all 3 of their stock is like that). I've started the return just now.

That "paint" looks very much like powder coating, if it is then the tool is weeks old, rather than decades.

Bod

 

[Jarno]

It is quite a new version of this plane, but the box could have told you that. But, yeah, it should have been delivered with a blade.
A fine plane though, might need a little bit more work to get it finely tuned.

Did the ebay auction have clear pictures?

 

[Daniel2]

The problem with the word "vintage", is that it lacks precise definition, in contexts other than wine.
It is very subjective. We all know what it's intended meaning is, but exactly what is, and what isn't "vintage, is less clear.
Having said that, sellers do abuse and exaggerate it, to the point, these days, of rendering it meaningless.
I would pull them up on it, in this example.
It is clearly not vintage, so their item description is completely misleading, whether it was their intention or not.
Vocabulary exists for a reason. Just gaily throwing in random words because they look attractive has, unfortunately, become somewhat of a blight recently.
Return it & tell them why.
Hopefully they're decent people.

ATB,
Daniel
PS; You could also suggest to them that, while they're editing the word vintage out of the description, they could also make it clear that it is supplied without a blade

 

[Jarno]

I buy on eBay regularly, and there are certain words that people think mean something, but actually do not. "Vintage" is one of them, I just ignore that type of words, same with "good condition", facts not fluff.
But yeah, if you are not happy with it, and it was misrepresented, return it.
Plenty of other 778's on ebay (or old Woden).

 

[Jackbequick]

My first impression is 'Indian reproduction' recently manufactured el-cheapo not vintage quality...though the original is only about what??... 70 years old. That the person had three should have alerted you also (maybe 3 or 23 or 33? ex India rubbish) Actully the boxing itself suggests this is not from a reputable organisation. It would have been decent had the advertisement said 'no blade' but on the same score...you would have been wise to ask. There are some extremely high quality tool makers today... Stanley is no longer one...but this unit you bought is not one. Was it costly?...It still might do your job with a blade.

I suggest if you look at the Amazon advertisement (Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch: Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement) you will find the tool supplied with a blade. Your vendor may be selling the blades separately or did an e cheapo deal on some without it, I suggest the former.

The advertisement ehn becomes ambiguous
Product description

Product Description
Record 778 rebate plane

The Record 778 rebate plane has two cutter positions, one for normal rebating work and a forward position for planing into corners and difficult positions.
The adjustable fence supplied can be used on either side of the plane to accurately control the size of the rebate.
Cast iron body with accurately ground base.
Five thread depth adjusting screw for precision control of shaving thickness.

Length 8.1/2in/215mm.
Cutter Width 1.1/2in/38mm.
Type. Rebate.
Set Contains:
1 x Rebate Plane

The cutter is not mentioned in "Set contains". To me this indicates deceptive practice. It see s possible your vendor bought from Amazon or India or somewhere, several planes to re-sell at profit on eBay.

I'm stronger in opinion than Jarno...if the blade was a part of the advertisement and if not excluded, is your entitlement. The photos from you are the eBay photos?...If the original photos showed a blade I'd send it back politely and explain the dilemma and error and if it escalates make as much fuss with eBay as it needs to get it retracted. Don't wait….or it will be too late...demand the recovery now....

I also have no idea why anyone is talking about 'tungsten' blades...handplane blades are in all my experience with old blades, high carbon steel. Today?...who knows...popout rubbish from India isn't going to have fine blades and I wouldn't even contemplate a 'tungsten' handplane blade..

If the blade was not shown in eBay photos or listed in'what you get' you can only protest the tool is incomplete. I do not agree you cannot/will not find an original blade but if only a recently made one it will likely be a mass production quality...likely to need to often be sharpened.

Record 'of old' made good tools...to me this is just junk by comparison and looking at the thing. You can see more on Record No. 778 Duplex Rabbet & Filletster Plane

Lie Nielsen...top tool makers did supply the blades so somemust be 'around' Lie-Nielsen Blade for Record 778 Rabbet Plane. "Tooled up" UK also sell the blades (be quick?) at 17 pounds and 95 pende sterling Record Replacement Iron for 778 Plane | Spare Irons

Now you have all the info to make a decision...but do not procrastinate...decide and act.



Note that the fillister is not an old tool...designed in 1950's but there are other ways of skinning the cat for the same outcome using older tools. I you get nowhere or let it drag on...do you have a use for it? If so use it until it breaks.

 

[Jackbequick]

some wise words from you too, jarno...I read after my own dissertation. (Chuckles)