New plane is bladeless

[Chipmonk]

Presumably you paid by paypal which would make getting a refund fairly simple even if not then ebay will sort it out. I wouldn't accept that it looks like a blatant rip off.

Yeah, now the 'new car smell' has worn off, I can see it for what it is. A cheap version in an old box. I did pay by paypal, and they've accepted a return, but I'm tempted to out them as a hooky practice.

That "paint" looks very much like powder coating, if it is then the tool is weeks old, rather than decades.

Bod

Yeah, I was wondering about that. The paint is layered on so thick, it's also covering a code of some sort (CF2?) above the No.788 stamp and I haven't seen that on any 'real' vintage pics. The record-planes site has a bunch of pics of this plane (among classier, older ones), but I don't think they are very picky about the gallery, or maybe this is really just a new, crappy version of the once-great brand.

It is quite a new version of this plane, but the box could have told you that. But, yeah, it should have been delivered with a blade.
A fine plane though, might need a little bit more work to get it finely tuned.

Did the ebay auction have clear pictures?

The box is definitely for a vintage unit, it's 70s/80s or thereabouts. The unit obviously isn't, though, now I've had a good look. No way it would survive 40 years without tarnishing. The build quality seems OK, but I can't shake this feeling the iron was low grade. It had a chip near the mouth and had this' fibrous' nature I associate with cheap metals. Can really describe it any better than that.

The problem with the word "vintage", is that it lacks precise definition, in contexts other than wine.
It is very subjective. We all know what it's intended meaning is, but exactly what is, and what isn't "vintage, is less clear.
Having said that, sellers do abuse and exaggerate it, to the point, these days, of rendering it meaningless.
I would pull them up on it, in this example.
It is clearly not vintage, so their item description is completely misleading, whether it was their intention or not.
Vocabulary exists for a reason. Just gaily throwing in random words because they look attractive has, unfortunately, become somewhat of a blight recently.
Return it & tell them why.
Hopefully they're decent people.

ATB,
Daniel
PS; You could also suggest to them that, while they're editing the word vintage out of the description, they could also make it clear that it is supplied without a blade

Yeah, it's a weasel word nowadays. Any year can be a good year, but unless they've had an uptick in production quality (newsflash: "quality declines since brand saturation") then the term isn't valid. I don't believe you can call something vintage unless it's an improvement on or equal to a previous vintage period, same goes for wines, too!

My first impression is 'Indian reproduction' recently manufactured el-cheapo not vintage quality...though the original is only about what??... 70 years old. That the person had three should have alerted you also (maybe 3 or 23 or 33? ex India rubbish) Actully the boxing itself suggests this is not from a reputable organisation. It would have been decent had the advertisement said 'no blade' but on the same score...you would have been wise to ask. There are some extremely high quality tool makers today... Stanley is no longer one...but this unit you bought is not one. Was it costly?...It still might do your job with a blade.

I suggest if you look at the Amazon advertisement (Irwin Record Rebate Plane Length 8-1/2-inch: Amazon.com.au: Home Improvement) you will find the tool supplied with a blade. Your vendor may be selling the blades separately or did an e cheapo deal on some without it, I suggest the former.

The advertisement ehn becomes ambiguous
Product description

Product Description
Record 778 rebate plane

The Record 778 rebate plane has two cutter positions, one for normal rebating work and a forward position for planing into corners and difficult positions.
The adjustable fence supplied can be used on either side of the plane to accurately control the size of the rebate.
Cast iron body with accurately ground base.
Five thread depth adjusting screw for precision control of shaving thickness.

Length 8.1/2in/215mm.
Cutter Width 1.1/2in/38mm.
Type. Rebate.
Set Contains:
1 x Rebate Plane

The cutter is not mentioned in "Set contains". To me this indicates deceptive practice. It see s possible your vendor bought from Amazon or India or somewhere, several planes to re-sell at profit on eBay.

I'm stronger in opinion than Jarno...if the blade was a part of the advertisement and if not excluded, is your entitlement. The photos from you are the eBay photos?...If the original photos showed a blade I'd send it back politely and explain the dilemma and error and if it escalates make as much fuss with eBay as it needs to get it retracted. Don't wait….or it will be too late...demand the recovery now....

I also have no idea why anyone is talking about 'tungsten' blades...handplane blades are in all my experience with old blades, high carbon steel. Today?...who knows...popout rubbish from India isn't going to have fine blades and I wouldn't even contemplate a 'tungsten' handplane blade..

If the blade was not shown in eBay photos or listed in'what you get' you can only protest the tool is incomplete. I do not agree you cannot/will not find an original blade but if only a recently made one it will likely be a mass production quality...likely to need to often be sharpened.

Record 'of old' made good tools...to me this is just junk by comparison and looking at the thing. You can see more on Record No. 778 Duplex Rabbet & Filletster Plane

Lie Nielsen...top tool makers did supply the blades so somemust be 'around' Lie-Nielsen Blade for Record 778 Rabbet Plane. "Tooled up" UK also sell the blades (be quick?) at 17 pounds and 95 pende sterling Record Replacement Iron for 778 Plane | Spare Irons

Now you have all the info to make a decision...but do not procrastinate...decide and act.



Note that the fillister is not an old tool...designed in 1950's but there are other ways of skinning the cat for the same outcome using older tools. I you get nowhere or let it drag on...do you have a use for it? If so use it until it breaks.

Yeah, I thought that "we have 3 brand new unopened boxes and they are all the same and none have blades" was really fishy. I suggested they'd been ripped off.

The earlier versions of the 778 were marked as tungsten blades on the packaging. You can see a few of them on the record-planes.com page for the 778. Adding Tn seems like it keeps the edge better.

Wow, I didn't know LN had made some 778 blades. I'd like to get my hands on one, but guess they'd be around $50 or more. I found quite a few places selling those ones from the TooledUp link, but they look cheap and there's no specification on the steel (on any site!), so I'm assuming it's rubbish. There's only ever 1 pic, never any specs and they all use the same, unhelpful description. Too many smells for me. Also, you can find the exact same one (according to identical pic) for £9, so that site is expensive.

I've already started the return process, just boxing it back up. It cost me £75 and I know I can get the one from Amazon, which looks to me like the same one for £85 and that has a blade. I wouldn't buy it, because I can't be pineappled to sharpen a blade every 50 feet.

Here's the link to the ebay ad, btw. Now I'm looking at it, it's obviously they tried to hide the fact it wasn't the same plane and that it was missing the blade. The lady has been really friendly and polite, so either I'm a cynical git or this is how they keep their 100% rating. I'm going with the latter.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-...E1rhQStBoo%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc
I've included another pic of the box and plane before I send it.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

.......

I also have no idea why anyone is talking about 'tungsten' blades...handplane blades are in all my experience with old blades, high carbon steel. Today?...who knows...popout rubbish from India isn't going to have fine blades and I wouldn't even contemplate a 'tungsten' handplane blade..

......

I have two (genuine, and relatively 'vintage' ) Record planes with 'Tungsten steel' blades/cutters:

a #20 compass plane Record No. 020 Circular Plane
and a #50 combi plane Record No. 050 Improved Combination Plane

I think that Record, but maybe others, made a 'thing' of tungsten steel blades (I guess they were said to hold an edge longer).

Cheers, W2S

 

[Chipmonk]

.......

......

I have two (genuine, and relatively 'vintage' ) Record planes with 'Tungsten steel' blades/cutters:

a #20 compass plane Record No. 020 Circular Plane
and a #50 combi plane Record No. 050 Improved Combination Plane

I think that Record, but maybe others, made a 'thing' of tungsten steel blades (I guess they were said to hold an edge longer).

Cheers, W2S

Thanks for chipping in. Do you find they hold the edge longer? Or isn't it an appreciable difference?

I haven't seen one of those circular planes before... very interesting.

I may have a look at the combination planes, too. I guess you can do grooves as well as rebates with them? I suppose they sacrifice cut width because of the grooves, though, so maybe not.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Thanks for chipping in. Do you find they hold the edge longer? Or isn't it an appreciable difference?

I haven't seen one of those circular planes before... very interesting.

I may have a look at the combination planes, too. I guess you can do grooves as well as rebates with them? Suppose the sacrifice cut depth for the grooves, though, so maybe not.

They're fairly specialist planes to they don't get an intensive workout very often - I guess their edge holds a little longer.

 

[Chipmonk]

They're fairly specialist planes to they don't get an intensive workout very often - I guess their edge holds a little longer.

OK, cheers. Sounds like I should stop worrying about getting the original, as long as it's not a poor quality one.

 

[Friesiansam]

In your position Chipmonk, I would be reporting the seller and following Ebay procedure to get a refund for falsely described goods. Ripoff merchants won't be stopped if no-one complains.

As for "vintage", a word so thoroughly misused by Ebay sellers, as to be meaningless.

 

[Jarno]

That's a Marples Record, and it is a real one not any kind of knockoff or anything. I bought one at about half that in the same condition on ebay, I would guess that is about 80's-90's? Later than that and it would be Irwin Record.
The colour is lighter blue than the older planes. Do not underestimate the number of warehouses where a stack of stuff can just stay untouched for years on end, just collecting a bit of dust which can easily be wiped off.
It is not misrepresented IMHO, but it is incomplete, and you couldn't know because the plane blade is in a brown envelope in the box, not mounted in the plane.
So, once more IMHO, send it back, because while it is probably new and a "real" Record, it is not complete (or, accept the extra cost of buying a nice blade for it, I mean, it is a very very nice plane).

Oh, and mine is definitely not gathering dust, I use it a lot. Been meaning to dull the left corner of the plane blade though, I keep cutting myself on it when I hold the plane.....

 

[Chipmonk]

In your position Chipmonk, I would be reporting the seller and following Ebay procedure to get a refund for falsely described goods. Ripoff merchants won't be stopped if no-one complains.

As for "vintage", a word so thoroughly misused by Ebay sellers, as to be meaningless.

Yeah, the injured pride part of me wants to do that (I'm 99% sure they knew it wasn't the one on the box and still don't believe them about the blades), but being wrong and slandering someone is a risk, so I'm going to point out the facts on the review and let people judge for themselves. I think the fact she told me her joiner mate said 'planes don't come with blades' and 'none of the other planes have blades' was an attempt to fob me off. Not a good way to earn trust, but hardly a smoking gun.

That's a Marples Record, and it is a real one not any kind of knockoff or anything. I bought one at about half that in the same condition on ebay, I would guess that is about 80's-90's? Later than that and it would be Irwin Record.
The colour is lighter blue than the older planes. Do not underestimate the number of warehouses where a stack of stuff can just stay untouched for years on end, just collecting a bit of dust which can easily be wiped off.
It is not misrepresented IMHO, but it is incomplete, and you couldn't know because the plane blade is in a brown envelope in the box, not mounted in the plane.
So, once more IMHO, send it back, because while it is probably new and a "real" Record, it is not complete (or, accept the extra cost of buying a nice blade for it, I mean, it is a very very nice plane).

Oh, and mine is definitely not gathering dust, I use it a lot. Been meaning to dull the left corner of the plane blade though, I keep cutting myself on it when I hold the plane.....

cheers, Jarno, but I'm sure it's not a Marples one, it's just too pristine and there's no sign of oils to protect it, so it can't have been preserved for decades. Irwin-Record, yes, I believe it could be, but the mismatch metween the box and the product is fishy (would they use a 70/80s box for a new irwin record? I *highly* doubt that. As you say, I can get a new or SH for the same or less and get it to actually cut stuff! Think of that... a cutting plane, what a time to be alive! Sorry, I have been containing sarcasm soooo hard with this seller.

I've already boxed it, but waiting for rain to stop before I send it. I did think about keeping it regardless, but there were little clues as to the drop in quality and I didn't want to pay £75 for it. The little jack-shaped thingy on the inside, just in front of the blade (no idea what it's for at this point) was ill-fitting and flimsy. All the pics I've seen of older models had this but looked like it was well machined and made of steel (this looked like lacquered ally).

Yeah, enough said, it's going back, but good to get so many opinions from you guys and well worth me signing up!

Cheers.

 

[Jackbequick]

I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day. Part of that 'modern tradesman' package is the gymnasium to get those 'throwing' muscles built up. I raised circumspection about the Amazon as it shows a blade but states only "Plane" as the component...so does that include blade?...I'd ask first. "Personally"

I'd go for the old (vintage sometimes) Stanley kit. ...for example Excellent Vintage Stanley #55 Combination Plane W/52 Cutters & Boxes + Extras | eBay

There are some 778 blades for sale on eBay at present The cheapest...lowest postage unlike the US ripoff 124129282722 another 114352868846 and a heap are available (German made) 323904523995...

 

[Vann]

There's no cutting iron in the original photos - but new planes are always supplied complete with irons.

It looks to me like NOS - but old stock because the retailer took the irons out to sell separately (possibly intending to order replacements).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Jarno]

+1
And as mentioned, if you buy it new, the plane blade sits in a small brown envelope in the box, so it is not mounted in the plane.
All planes come with plane irons, you can sometimes order extras, but there are always one or more with the plane when new and complete.
Wouldn't go with a Stanley 55 as a replacement for a (7)78, maybe a 44, but that certainly doesn't have as much heft as a 78.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day.

I think it's worth making a distinction between steel with tungsten (and probably vanadium) as part of the alloy (which is what the old Record tools used), and more modern tooling with tungsten carbide cutting edges. Both are easily sharpenable with modern diamond stones (although tungsten-rich dust is not good to breathe).

 

[Jackbequick]

There's no cutting iron in the original photos - but new planes are always supplied complete with irons.

It looks to me like NOS - but old stock because the retailer took the irons out to sell separately (possibly intending to order replacements).

Cheers, Vann.

Hi Vann...my thoughts on that are similar but that there was never any intention to provide the cutters....bearing in mind that places like eBay have all sorts and types and your comeback is when they only provide what is stated. So....unless they say 'photos are part of the description' and like Amazon end up with
Supplied:
Plane only when I would want to see
plane and cutter or plane and genuine 778 blade

You are wise to ask. Let's not imagine eBay and Gumtree in particular offer outlets only for honest people, every and any crook has the opportunity to access your cash and the costs of getting the cash back punish the buyer.

 

[Jackbequick]

I think it's worth making a distinction between steel with tungsten (and probably vanadium) as part of the alloy (which is what the old Record tools used), and more modern tooling with tungsten carbide cutting edges. Both are easily sharpenable with modern diamond stones (although tungsten-rich dust is not good to breathe).

Fair point Woody, so long as one knows what is actually intended by 'tungsten blade' Considering how comparatively little of the blade will be used before throw away and possible costs I'd rather correct mix carbon steel and an ordinary oilstone. Others may see it differently. I still use planes with blades over 100years old, used properly and sharpened properly they do a mighty job...Perhaps it's impressive to use the word 'tungsten' as a descriptor these days where tools are poor...for example I spent hours sharpening my new Stanley chisels to perfection. Stored them away whilst overseas...came back to find the softer part of the handles rotted off them. Would Stanley sharpen them for me on replacements?,,, no, so I kept them one day hoping to find a handle solution. By and large hand tools today are rubbish by comparison with products up to the 1960's. I take that back when thinking of Sidchrome which was barely passable compared with Gedore for example. American industrial tools were the tops. That's where the old tradesman was king, and if you wanted to sell to them you turned out good gear. That's the reason my tools are old an I still have the tools of my apprenticeship, 56 years ago.

Most places now, wanting to compete and have outlets at places like Bunnings turn out to a price and claim it is to same specification as when made in (say Switzerland) it's old regime. When the handle on the screwdriver turns independently of the shaft you know it's junk....when you see people belting a wood handled chisel with a hammer and not tapped with a mallet you realise its about the distance between horse and cart and a motor lorry. When you open your 'traditional name' stored steel capped boots and find the soles rotted off them you know how low we have allowed manufacturers to go...and to hide in the 'globalised' marketplace. Amazon and ABE claim to have return situations but in my experience never meet the promise. "Brave New World"? One can better buy worn flat face tools, including wooden planes and true them for another hundred years of good service. Unless we demand best quality we will always be overwhelmed by DIY quality...That's my soap box oratory over!!

 

[TheTiddles]

Sorry you’ve been conned, but there is something funny in here... she has three in unopened boxes without blades... without opening the box, how does she know there aren’t blades in them? Does she also have a cat in a box and is her last name Schrodinger?

Aidan

 

[Inspector]

Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.

 

[Jackbequick]

Sorry you’ve been conned, but there is something funny in here... she has three in unopened boxes without blades... without opening the box, how does she know there aren’t blades in them? Does she also have a cat in a box and is her last name Schrodinger?

Aidan

Aidan....Sie stellen zu viele fragen!! Wörter wie 'Schraeder and Schrodinger' (I now trying my gut inglish) should remind you of ze real world......when our language usink plis remember you do not ask the questions...you gif only answers...like ze inspector. It is we, ze vendor who choose whether to gif you Inglander "blade" oder geben Ihnen keine kinge. Picture on box is just added bonus. Ja?.

 

[Jackbequick]

Aidan she weighed a box and complete plane and then did the same with an incomplete plane, blade out. Then compared the unopened boxes she had. Coclusion. The unopened boxes have no blades.

You will go far in life Inspector....this is the method used in some countries in deciding elections. It is possible the vendor bought the planes to re-sell but from some shonky dealer or suckered 'other'. Schrodinger's notional cat may, if one's imagination stretches so far, have purloined the cutters. The questions are: 'what constitutes a smoothing 'plane' ...'is your opinion the only one'... 'is there a rigid and enforceable definition (in this case of 'plane' and 'what did the vendor believe it had for sale'. Say any of us was selling a table of hand tools and it included say a number 1 Stanley USA or Canadian. Would it be a number 1 Stanley plane without its blade? I might argue were there two pretty much equivalent and not chipped etc. the other English being provided with a blade....would I buy the USA Canadian without a blade or the English with the blade?...I'd buy the former. I might buy boh to get the blade or I might negotiate for the blade until I found a genuine original.

If only buying the USA/ Canadian would I say 'do you have the original box for my bladeless plane' or just say 'do you have the original box for the plane'. Obviously I am talking about 'common parlance' as opposed to 'definitive surgical analysis'.

Nowdays we get a price for say a battery drill...arrive to buy it and find it 'skin-only'...no battery. So what constitutes a battery drill? Buying a mains powered drill does not include a substation connected to the h.v. complete with voltage reduction or a portable alternator....we have to provide that...then apply that argument to the battery...and to the blade. In the modern world of chicanery and internet sales it is wise to keep in mind and engage proactively that muse from 'The Usual Suspects"...'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist'. It should be 'the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to con people that 'globalisation is good'. Look at the origins of all attempts at globalisation (empire builders) including the successful central banker method and evil is behind it.

In practice too much' has become 'small print' … 'typical photograph, not this item' and 'buy now argue later'. The honourable handshake and 'giri' driven obligation being fulfilled even at a loss has pretty well vanished. Tanaka Ken in the brilliant movie "Yakuza" made a comment to Robert Mitchum concerning 'Giri'..'.the obligation hardest to bear' . His answer to Mitchums buddy's 'what if you don't bear it?' was ...if you don't FEEL it...you don't have it. (my emphasis).

Honour amongst good men, for good cause has largely become superseded by obligation to evil men for evil deeds....we see them daily and often support them.

It seems our dissatisfied buyer has made an arrangement to recover his funds in part or all. The question we have to ask these days is 'what am I actually getting'...and ask the vendor in advance. It's very simple 'does the plane I would buy come complete and with its cutter'. I realise from experience and losses amounting into many thousands that eBay is riddled with shonks and people pretending they are ignorant... 'lights up...do not have aerial to test further' or 'from my grandfather's estate...worked ok in 1930....should be ok'...stories .

These days in this method of distance and description purchase "Caveat Emptor'...the rather nauseating business advice has become really essential. If I don't get a satisfactory answer no matter how much I lust after an item...I will not buy or bid. Not altogether a patient man I have found through painful experience that it is true that whatever you see ….perhaps setting aside something like a Bugatti 57C Atlantic ...will turn up again and often a better buy. (there are four of those Bugattis so....hmmmm… maybe....).

Don't lust after items, just decided what is your purpose and are they fit for purpose. I forgot to check...Lie Neilsen made a 778 blade...why?...surely not for 'record owners'....maybe the company made the equivalent of the 778....if so that's the one I'd be after...in the meantime I'd find another way to do the job for which I want the 778 or buy a Stanley somewhere in that 40-55 range which will immediately or ultimately do the same job.

 

[Vann]

Hi Vann...my thoughts on that are similar but that there was never any intention to provide the cutters...

I'm reluctant to agree with you there. In my own experience I have at least twice had a retailer take a part out of the box, as he had none of that part in stock (in one case it was a collet for a router - he opened another router box and sold me the collet). In both cases the retailer was both honest and helpful. I have no reason to suspect they were not going to order a replacement part as soon as I left the shop.

I do agree that the seller in this case is either mis-informed or dishonest. But like I say, I suspect somewhere down the track a retailer took the cutting irons out to help a customer.

...Lie Neilsen made a 778 blade...why?...surely not for 'record owners'...

Apparently so. I have one in my Record 778.

...maybe the company made the equivalent of the 778...

No, Lie-Nielsen have never made a 778. I don't think they've ever made a rebate plane - the nearest would be their shoulder planes.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Chipmonk]

I was querulous about 'tungsten blade' as more difficult to sharpen...last longer but not as easy. Tungsten tipped saw blades for example are meant to be 'throw away'. Unlike some shearers and some tradesmen most I think would throw away the blunt blade ...not do what we do and sharpen them at home ready for the next day. Part of that 'modern tradesman' package is the gymnasium to get those 'throwing' muscles built up. I raised circumspection about the Amazon as it shows a blade but states only "Plane" as the component...so does that include blade?...I'd ask first. "Personally"

I'd go for the old (vintage sometimes) Stanley kit. ...for example Excellent Vintage Stanley #55 Combination Plane W/52 Cutters & Boxes + Extras | eBay

There are some 778 blades for sale on eBay at present The cheapest...lowest postage unlike the US ripoff 124129282722 another 114352868846 and a heap are available (German made) 323904523995...

I have diamond stone, so it shouldn't be much of a problem after the first honing.

Cheers for the tip, I'll take a look at that.