Narex going back. Now what for mortisers?

[AJB Temple]

I want a set of Mortise Chisels. Preferably imperial - only really need four sizes at most. I have a few Japanese heavy duty framing chisels, but these are much too big and heavy duty for the oak, maple and beech kitchen cabinetry work I am planning.

I ordered a set from Narex via a German supplier I sometimes use. I thought these were being brought over by my in-laws next week, but in fact they arrived in the post this afternoon. What actually arrived was a set of six bevel edge chisels in a box, which was a surprise (bevels not box)! I already have LN and footprint bevels so I don't need any more, hence they would in any case be going back to be swapped for the required mortisers.

However, I was unimpressed with the Narex. The chisel backs are not flat. The smaller chisels being worse than the big ones. I can accept a small amount of flattening and polishing, but in one case there is a discernible ridge down the edge, which is not great. I also dislike the handles as the stained wood lacks a quality feel, as do the metal hoops. It is of course ridiculous to get six chisels in a wooden box for €68, but I ordered them because I had seen lots of good reviews in both UK and US blogs etc.

So now what? I very much like my LN bevels, but I am wary of socket chisels for mortising as past experience some years ago (also making a handmade kitchen) with some old socket chisels was that when I tried to stop twisting, the handles kept coming loose.

Probably I won't use them a lot so don't want to spend the earth: I can get a set of 5 LN sockets for £210 inc LN tool roll which is OK (except they are metric I think) but I would rather pay less. So, I do want decent quality and don't want to spend all day flattening them. Any recommendations for both chisels and supplier?

Thanks

Adrian

 

[G S Haydon]

Although superbly made I'm not sure I'd personally choose a socket chisel for mortising. The most pleasing mortise chisels to use have a slight taper becoming narrower in width as they approach the bolster. I've chopped mortises with parallel sided chisels but they are more prone to binding and take more effort to use.

I'd search on ebay, even if they don't have handles making a new handle would not difficult.

Or if you do want new http://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/chise ... _13mm.html non socket chisel

You could try Ray Iles versions http://www.oldtoolstore.co.uk/ - better wright up here https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/sto ... y_Ray_Iles but buy them in the UK

 

[Jacob]

..... So, I do want decent quality and don't want to spend all day flattening them. Any recommendations for both chisels and supplier?

Thanks

Adrian

I'd go for the oval bolster trad pattern. 2nd hand on ebay all sizes available £5 - £20 ish usually better than any of the new ones

NB you don't need to "flatten" new chisels - this is a daft modern fashion/ritual which wastes a lot of people's time. I don't know where the idea came from but it's completely pointless!

PS I just checked - most of the ones advertised as mortice chisel on ebay aren't actually mortice chisels - they should look like these below, only without Derek's extravagant exotic hardwood handles!

I had a quick look at the LN offerings - very flimsy handles completely unsuitable IMHO and parallel sides which completely misses the point - they must be very inconvenient to use.

 

[Bm101]

I got some of these Ashley Iles Firmer Chisels a while ago Adrian. I didn't buy as a set although you have that option. In my humble opinion they are fantastic. First 'proper' chisels I've owned. I bought a selection of sizes that I've used regularly over the years and that enabled me to buy some of the mark 2 cabinet makers chisels as well. Used them a couple of times and couldn't be happier. Arrived well honed and sharp.
The firmer chisels have the ring on the top of the handle to prevent handle damage. The handles seem well turned and very well jointed to the steel. They have an excellent balance in the hand at least to me.
I'm far from an expert but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them based on my experience at least. Fitted a new lock to a pine back door the other day and it was a joy after my old stanleys Ive used in the past.
Joy to look at, joy to hold, joy to use.
From the research (*read looking at tool sites for hours ) I'd say they are a step up from the Narex without going the exorbitant step of LN's.
10/10 from me for what its worth.
http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Ash ... isels.html is where I got them, dunno if there's other suppliers.

 

[AJB Temple]

ha has, non flattening. if you had net my father, you would know where I get this idea from. He was a precision toolmaker and literally every tool he had would be stamped with his name and data of purchase, and this would not happen unless it had been checked for correct dimensions. Thus it was drilled into me to set tools up extremely well and keep them pristine. I still have his massive engineers oak toolbox that takes two people to lift!

The unground edge on the 6mm bevel chisel made the back un-square by 0.2mm. That is a lot for a narrow chisel and makes cutting perfect slots difficult. Perhaps I am being too fussy, but it was this that put me off, plus a lot of grind marks on the backs of three of the tools. The cutting edge grind was pretty hopeless as well, as the edge was clearly rolled over. Easy to fix of course.

Thanks for the tips so far. I will investigate.

Adrian

(PS - not a single posted web link on this forum works for me. I am using current version of Safari on latest version of OS X. Does anyone else have this?)

 

[D_W]

You can use your bevel edge chisels. I'd choose a vintage chisel with tapered sides, and not too big of a cross section because a real fat/tall chisel might cause problems in the limited mortise space.

I had the LN chisels. For as small as they look, you can't break them - they're good chisels. I wish they had made something intended for deeper mortises instead of a parallel sided sash mortise chisel, though. Best thing I could say about them other than their toughness for size is that I could get most of my money back when I sold them.

I use small japanese chisels now for mortises. I don't know if I'd buy the same thing again or not, I'd probably get anything I could find with tapered sides. I got a deal on the chisels I got, and they are spectacular, but they would be more than $100 each if I bought them new, and I got them for a small fraction of that.

Japanese bench chisels and mortising chisels aren't much different in sizes below about 9mm. If you find bench chisels with a square cross section, they are very easy to maintain with a completely flat bevel (to ride the bevel in a mortise) and their taper is about the same as a mortise chisel.

 

[James C]

I bought a Narex Mortice chisel from Matthew at WSH. The face wasn't flat on that one either, however it was returned and Matthew very helpfully sent another that it was in perfect condition.

 

[Mike.S]

I'd go for the oval bolster trad pattern. 2nd hand on ebay all sizes available £5 - £20 ish usually better than any of the new ones

+1

I have several of these (mainly Ward and Sorby's but one 'new' Ray Iles) and used for small and large mortices. Usually Ash handled, with large bolsters so can take a pounding. Blades are (or should be ) trapezoid to help avoid binding, with the widest part - in line with cutting edge - serving to 'scrape' the mortice sides as you lever the chips out.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks. From past experience I struggle a bit with bench (bevel) chisels when cutting batches of mortices (s and c both seem to be used here!). I want to grind them differently as well as my bevel chisels are used for instrument making and I don't want to abuse them with chopping out.

I can't find Ashley Isles mortice chisels at all on line, including on their web site and workshop heaven. Is firmer and mortice the same thing (excuse my ignorance). I don't want them to bind in the slots or mess about with under sized cuts. Sadly I do not have a mortising machine and can't justify buying one.

I should add that although I have built out kitchens and utility rooms a couple of times with (for me) high quality cabinets, and a erected few (3) oak timber framed secondary buildings, most of what I do is making acoustic and electric guitars and a few violins. I have never done high volume M&T work. In this case I wish to make a fairly large (10m by 9m) kitchen at home, with all cabinetry, tables and furniture, and I would like this to be largely hand made. and bespoke. The idea is to make my life easy and especially enjoy the job, which I am doing in my free time (as the building wile self contained for now and then the existing kitchen will be decommissioned). The tactile pleasure of owning and using the tools is part of this, but I was brought up not to waste money and as my wife {German} keeps a close eye on expenditure that does not involve shoes and handbags, I need to be careful ;-)

 

[RogerP]

........
I'd go for the oval bolster trad pattern. 2nd hand on ebay all sizes available £5 - £20 ish usually better than any of the new ones...............

Me too - I've always known them as pig stickers.

 

[AndyT]

For Ashley Iles mortice chisels on their own site, go to http://www.oldtoolstore.co.uk/, click on Chisels in the left hand side menu, under Edge Tools. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.

Workshop heaven don't sell the oval handled chisels but do list AI heavy duty registered pattern chisels which are also suitable for mortising.

http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Ashley_Iles_Firmer_Chisels.html

 

[Harbo]

It's Ray that makes the mortice ones

Rod

 

[Argus]

Everything to do with mortise chisels dealt with so far except the OP’s observation about socket handles on the modern chisels (LN etc.) coming loose. I’m going to stay away from the various methods of cutting mortises and the right tool for the job……….. life’s too short.

But, here’s some of my own observations on socketed chisels.

I had a set of these LN once and noticed that all the handles were identical and were milled the same to be interchangeable. Good idea…. But, with smooth sides, there’s no grip and they often part company with their chisel.
LN chisels are very nice but…… they are perhaps too nice and too well made – I was afraid of belting these things in case they snapped!
Aesthetics and personal preferences aside, what’s the point of sockets in chisels if you aren’t going to belt them?

I also have some assorted very old socketed mortise, firmer and other chisels that are very robust and have had a rough old life over the past century or so.
Comparing this lot, the sockets on the LN chisels were milled on a machine; they are dead smooth internally and tended to slip out, especially with temperature changes.
Others were of two sorts: some were forged, in that the socket was hot swaged, producing an irregular shape that showed the irregularities and wear of the smith’s tools that made them. On another, the socket when viewed internally showed signs that it was folded and welded. In each case, each chisel required its own socket handle with a differing slope and irregular sides – not always circular.

Taking one apart to replace an obviously shattered and split handle, I noticed that a previous owner had introduced some sandy grit to keep the handle on and believe me, it was effective.

So, a tip for LN chisel owners fed up with picking them up off the floor – a bit of sharp sand inside the socket.

Equally, a good tang-handle chisel of any sort is as good as any for the type of work we do….. heavy framing is a different matter.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

One point that might be worth noting for anybody considering purchasing Ray Iles oval-bolstered mortice chisels is the steel from which they're made - D2. This, by all accounts, holds it's edge for a very long time, but has the reputation for being difficult to sharpen on some media. Diamond stones or ceramics are recommended by most reviewers, but if your sharpening equipment is oilstones, waterstones or wet-and-dry, it may be prudent to consider vintage OBM chisels instead.

Another small point is that mortice chisel sizes are usually 'nominal', in the sense that a 1/4" chisel tends to be 'about' 1/4", and several 1/4" chisels will give a range of absolute sizes if checked with a micrometer. In practice, this isn't a problem - you just set your mortice gauge to YOUR chisel, mark out and cut tenons to fit the sunk mortices.

For somebody making a lot of components from 1" sawn timber (I suspect kitchen cabinetry will fall under this category), which will plane up to 3/4" or a bit fuller, most mortices and tenons will end up at about 1/4" - you can do an awful lot of work before you need any other size. That size also tends to be among the commonly available secondhand; finding a decent one should be no problem at all.

Edit to add - I feel I ought to add that the Ray Iles OBM chisels have a reputation for being very good quality tools, and for anybody with sharpening media suitable for them they should give every satisfaction.

 

[Trafalgar]

Worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_NXq7_TILA

I've pretty much quit using mortise chisels. Blue Chips work fine, actually a little better to be honest.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

One point that might be worth noting for anybody considering purchasing Ray Iles oval-bolstered mortice chisels is the steel from which they're made - D2. This, by all accounts, holds it's edge for a very long time, but has the reputation for being difficult to sharpen on some media. Diamond stones or ceramics are recommended by most reviewers, but if your sharpening equipment is oilstones, waterstones or wet-and-dry, it may be prudent to consider vintage OBM chisels instead.

Another small point is that mortice chisel sizes are usually 'nominal', in the sense that a 1/4" chisel tends to be 'about' 1/4", and several 1/4" chisels will give a range of absolute sizes if checked with a micrometer. In practice, this isn't a problem - you just set your mortice gauge to YOUR chisel, mark out and cut tenons to fit the sunk mortices.

For somebody making a lot of components from 1" sawn timber (I suspect kitchen cabinetry will fall under this category), which will plane up to 3/4" or a bit fuller, most mortices and tenons will end up at about 1/4" - you can do an awful lot of work before you need any other size. That size also tends to be among the commonly available secondhand; finding a decent one should be no problem at all.

You beat me to the punch! I was going to mention the Iles material being D2. I only have one (1/4") and fortunately it came in pretty good shape. At the time I bought it, I was using either Sc paper on a granite plate or waterstones, and I suspect I used the "scary sharp" method on this chisel.

Personally, I would be inclined to seek out a vintage pig sticker, or try another brand, maybe Two Cherries or Hirsch.

 

[RogerP]

.....Personally, I would be inclined to seek out a vintage pig sticker, or try another brand, maybe Two Cherries or Hirsch.

Agreed. I'd not dream of paying the price asked for new Ray Iles mortising chisels (£30-£50 or so each) when old pig-stickers can be found on eBay or at car-boots for a couple of quid each.

 

[dunbarhamlin]

OBMC for me too - vintage or Ray's. Since they're for belting not paring the sharpenability of D2 seemed just fine to me, with water or oil stones, though don't think anything can better a nice old laminated OBMC.
The Sorby sash mortise chisels referenced above are purdy, but believe they have round tangs, as the handle can twist if too much torque applied

 

[AJB Temple]

Well. I agree that eBay is a good idea. I am just so bad at monitoring the things. My brother is a magnet for tools and he has just informed me that "on my behalf" he has acquired three LN mortise chisels for £66 which he says as are as new (ignoring my point about twisting above) and a set of a "few" old ones from mixed manufacturers, which he is going to polish up (he is a development engineer with access to every kind of machine imaginable) and send to me next week. God knows what will turn up. What I actually asked him for was some tin snips, but I foolishly mentioned this thread as well.

 

[Bm101]

I don't know if you saw this Adrian? for-sale-axminster-bench-morticer-t92484.html
Might or might not be suitable. You could buy that for saving time then send me those other chisels. He's in Sussex which isnt too far from you (depending).
Who knows. Might help. Probably too late now.
cheers.