Mortising - 114 years of progress

[AndyT]

This exchange is from The Woodworker in 1902, its second year of publication. I thought it was an interesting illustration of how far we have progressed since those un-enlightened times...

The original post:

Next month, Mr HJ of Berkhamstead, who is no slouch in the speed mortising stakes, sends in this corrective:

Next month, the author of the original disagrees:

But Mr HJ gets the last word in the next issue - his way is best, so there's no more to be said! :lol:

 

[bugbear]

The one thing they have in common is cutting with the chisel running down along its bevel.

c.f. Maynard!

BugBear

 

[NickN]

Mr H J, eh?

One wonders what the J might stand for... :mrgreen:

Actually very interesting to read though. Can't imagine many boys of 12-14 these days would know what a chisel was, let alone a mortise. Unless there was an Android app game, like Chisel Crush or something.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks Andy! I think H.J. has it sorted.

 

[undergroundhunter]

Actually very interesting to read though. Can't imagine many boys of 12-14 these days would know what a chisel was, let alone a mortise. Unless there was an Android app game, like Chisel Crush or something.

Actually I was quite surprised to learn that proper hand cut dovetails are once again being taught in schools (under the guise of resistant materials), I learned this from a resistant materials teacher I got chatting to at the Harrogate show yesterday wile discussing the veritas dovetail saddle. I have to say I was stunned.

I can also confirm sitting with one leg either side of the work piece when mortising is a very bad idea. While chopping the 3 1/2" deep mortices for my work bench legs I slipped and put the 3/4" razor sharp chisel quite deep into my inner thigh, an inch or so higher and I could have been quite unlucky and a little further and I would have been very very unlucky. Me being me though just got the bleeding to stop and glued it back together, Ive got a scar but other than that made a full recovery.

Matt

 

[D_W]

Mr H J, eh?

One wonders what the J might stand for... :mrgreen:

Actually very interesting to read though. Can't imagine many boys of 12-14 these days would know what a chisel was, let alone a mortise. Unless there was an Android app game, like Chisel Crush or something.

Certainly, it stands for Hardwood Jesus!!

100+ years ago, we had the same thing as we have now.

"mine is the best in getting actual work done"

vs.

"no, mines better. You can't get as much done with it, but students learn it faster"

(I'd hate to earn a piece rate living with the one that students learn the fastest if it's slower than the one that makes more pieces).

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm not sure that piece-rate craftsmanship is something one should aspire to unless one is looking for employment in a piece-rate shop. Might need at time machine, too.

 

[D_W]

I'm not sure that piece-rate craftsmanship is something one should aspire to unless one is looking for employment in a piece-rate shop. Might need at time machine, too.

Anybody cutting mortises all day long in a door factory before mechanization would have gotten very fast with any reasonable method, or have been replaced, starved, whichever came first I suppose.

Well, unless there's some compromise in the finish of the mortise, it's generally more satisfying to do things as efficiently as you can. Not necessarily as fast as you can, but efficiently.

 

[Trafalgar]

I'm not sure that piece-rate craftsmanship is something one should aspire to unless one is looking for employment in a piece-rate shop. Might need at time machine, too.

Anybody cutting mortises all day long in a door factory before mechanization would have gotten very fast with any reasonable method, or have been replaced, starved, whichever came first I suppose.

Well, unless there's some compromise in the finish of the mortise, it's generally more satisfying to do things as efficiently as you can. Not necessarily as fast as you can, but efficiently.

I'm guessing they weren't the best mortises ever cut, regardless of method. Since when has mass production, hand or machine, resulted in the best quality? Rarely to never.

 

[D_W]

I have no idea where you're going with this Charlie. You'll have to tell me where that guy's method would come up short in neatness.

 

[Argus]

I expect that we could have the same discussion on mortise techniques in 100 from now. However, at the risk of digressing, there is an interesting point in (I think) the third paragraph, which states that the average boy in those days had not the strength or endurance for heavy mortising.

This was a similar sentiment expressed by recruiting sergeants of the general health of the man in the street right through from the Crimea War to the First War and reflected the generally poor health and physique of most working people. Bad diet and the lingering effects of rickets mostly.

The way it was written by ‘Anxious’ suggests that it was an accepted fact of life. I hope that we are not repeating history.

 

[RossJarvis]

I expect that we could have the same discussion on mortise techniques in 100 from now. However, at the risk of digressing, there is an interesting point in (I think) the third paragraph, which states that the average boy in those days had not the strength or endurance for heavy mortising.

This was a sentiment expressed by recruiting sergeants of the man in the street right through from the Crimea War to the First War and reflected the generally poor health and physique of most working people. Bad diet and the lingering effects of rickets mostly.

The way it was written by ‘Anxious’ suggests that it was an accepted fact of life. I hope that we are not repeating history.

That's a very interesting point, which I wouldn't have thought of, these days there are many hulking brutes aged 13 (lovely people though) who'd have no problem. Britain really is a different place to then, thank God.

 

[Argus]

Britain really is a different place to then, thank God.

Well, apart from the general inability of lads to cut a decent mortise, the perceived affects of poor diet remains; too much fat and sugar.... then substitute incipient Diabetes for Rickets and we live in a similar age.

 

[RossJarvis]

Britain really is a different place to then, thank God.

Well, apart from the general inability of lads to cut a decent mortise, the perceived affects of poor diet remains; too much fat and sugar.... then substitute incipient Diabetes for Rickets and we live in a similar age.

Ah, at least they'll have the energy to chop the mortices and drop dead in their 40s, maybe nothing has changed as you say

 

[Trafalgar]

I have no idea where you're going with this Charlie. You'll have to tell me where that guy's method would come up short in neatness.

A "method", per se, is no guarantee of good work. We'd all be master cabinetmakers in short order if this were the case.

 

[D_W]

I have no idea where you're going with this Charlie. You'll have to tell me where that guy's method would come up short in neatness.

A "method", per se, is no guarantee of good work. We'd all be master cabinetmakers in short order if this were the case.

I guess it's platitude day.

 

[Trafalgar]

Call it what you will.

I doubt the first thing a new apprentice at Barnsley is told is "this is how they used to do it in piece-work shops." I could be wrong, though.

A "method" without any context is meaningless.

 

[D_W]

Call it what you will.

I doubt the first thing a new apprentice at Barnsley is told is "this is how they used to do it in piece-work shops." I could be wrong, though.

A "method" without any context is meaningless.

Charlie, I have no idea how you got to this point. I didn't see anyone advocating sloppy work. I have seen in the japanese tradition that the requirement is to work fast and neat, and there is some parallel in being able to work quickly and naturally. If a method used quickly in a piece-rate shop is efficient, but too sloppy, then you change it as needed, but in order to do neat work, you wouldn't start with a less efficient method and go from there.

I didn't see the two individuals discussing the back-and-forth talking about Barnsley - have we gotten to the work that you do hand joints only in fussy work? kreg screws for the rest?

 

[woodbrains]

If a method used quickly in a piece-rate shop is efficient, but too sloppy, then you change it as needed, but in order to do neat work, you wouldn't start with a less efficient method and go from there.

Hello,

You certainly might start with a slower, neater method and try to become faster with practice, if the product you were making sold on the basis of its quality. Fast and sloppy will just get a pile of firewood and the worker lose their job. Structural house carpentry, perhaps the opposite would be true.

Mike.

 

[D_W]

I guess I'm not getting across here - there is no guarantee that slow and fussy methods will produce a better result. I don't follow studio furniture, so I don't know what's going on there (probably dominos or something), but there is no conceptional reason that an efficient mortising method wouldn't create a clean result as long as you don't get quick at the ends of the mortise and bruise them out of carelessness. Everything in the middle of the mortise is going to come out easiest with efficient progressive work, and it should come out cleanly that way.

Most important in all of this is probably determining a standard, and then working to it, but I would choose efficient first for a couple of reasons:
1) efficient isn't sloppy. Sloppy is sloppy.
2) a lot of the things in woodworking that are efficient are also neater (dimensioning wood, for example, is neater with efficiency than it is just stabbing away sloppily and then stopping to check what you're doing constantly. Carving looks neater and more lively if it's done with long efficient cuts than it does with short cuts and a bunch of scraping and sanding).

I have no clue what students are taught, but back to the original topic - instructors like to teach what students learn the most easily. It's still the case now. How many times on this forum do we see that something that is described as less good because it's harder for beginners to learn. Makes no sense to me.