Mock ye not !!

[Cottonwood]

Thanks for the tip Andy, I never knew that had been done before! I had envisaged a sort of T shaped beam or I beam with a stop at the end similar to what we have on a bench hook, that could drop into the vice...I'll have a look into Mr Ellises book again, I have a copy somewhere, but havent really trawled its depths.

Jacob makes yet another fair point, the obsession with super accuracy, engineer-like precision IS off putting-and can create unrealistic expectations in the minds of people new to woodworking. Of ourse this inevitably involves parting with lots of cash...the latest tools, paraphernalia, books and dvd's etc. There seems to be a notion that woodworking isnt done correctly unless you pay your dues & spend out a whole lot of cash. Look how often people post and ask what should I buy? how much do I need to spend? As if £££'s will infer woodworking skill, when actually it come down to the munndane reality of the traditional and age old time spent practising the essential basic hand skills. Personally I would far rather spend my money on some good timber (I got some quality redwood just yesterday) and crack on with it, than yet another book or dvd series on dovetails or sharpening or whatever....
I have been fortunate to watch one or 2 master woodworkers at work. I remember one man (time served) who was teaching a group of us basics of drawing rods, face side face edge, setting out mortices & tennons etc. What was truly amazing was that he could pick up any of the (somewhat battered and blunt after studennt misuse) colleges tools to do demos, and STILL acheive good results with them-not brilliant, as would be the case with his own personal well cared for and sharpened kit-but GOOD.

 

[iNewbie]

Jacob makes yet another fair point, the obsession with super accuracy, engineer-like precision IS off putting-and can create unrealistic expectations in the minds of people new to woodworking. Of ourse this inevitably involves parting with lots of cash...the latest tools, paraphernalia, books and dvd's etc. There seems to be a notion that woodworking isnt done correctly unless you pay your dues & spend out a whole lot of cash. Look how often people post and ask what should I buy? how much do I need to spend? As if £££'s will infer woodworking skill, when actually it come down to the munndane reality of the traditional and age old time spent practising the essential basic hand skills. Personally I would far rather spend my money on some good timber (I got some quality redwood just yesterday) and crack on with it, than yet another book or dvd series on dovetails or sharpening or whatever....
I have been fortunate to watch one or 2 master woodworkers at work. I remember one man (time served) who was teaching a group of us basics of drawing rods, face side face edge, setting out mortices & tennons etc. What was truly amazing was that he could pick up any of the (somewhat battered and blunt after studennt misuse) colleges tools to do demos, and STILL acheive good results with them-not brilliant, as would be the case with his own personal well cared for and sharpened kit-but GOOD.

Serious question: how many beginners out there are hung-up on Engineers thous of an inch perfection when starting out. Its an unrealistic expectation - perhaps a few with an OCD issue might be out there imploding...

How many threads are started with. "I'm one thou out, what should I do?" We could probably count them on one hand. This is Jacob's world/view they're all in armchairs -out there. Its a distorted view imho. Daily mail, anyone?


People are always asking what tools should I buy -and how much should I spend, because they're not sure. Its par for the course. You'll find the same (what should I) question(s) on any forum where someone has a new interest in something and has no knowledge to the subject.


Jimi Hendrix/Clapton could make any sh**** guitar sing, yet they always have nice tools...

If anyone thinks buying a top-line tool will instantly make them an artisan they're an silly person. I don't know any who do - its a bit like if I bought Dave Beckhams footie boots and I'll be curlin 'em like him in 5 mins... It isn't reality.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks for the tip Andy, I never knew that had been done before! I had envisaged a sort of T shaped beam or I beam with a stop at the end similar to what we have on a bench hook, that could drop into the vice........

That's the way I do it more or less - a bit of a batten screwed to the underside of the planing board to be held in the vice and other battens, laths, or just screws, as stops on top.

 

[Jacob]

....
Jimi Hendrix/Clapton could make any sh**** guitar sing, yet they always have nice tools... .....

Actually fairly bog standard Fender Strats. Nothing special - cheap but very good. A few tweaks of their own but not a lot different from the one I just bought on ebay for £50. I can't play it very well but that's another story - not sure if it relates to woodwork.

 

[iNewbie]

....
Jimi Hendrix/Clapton could make any sh**** guitar sing, yet they always have nice tools... .....

Actually fairly bog standard Fender Strats. Nothing special - cheap but very good. A few tweaks of their own but not a lot different from the one I just bought on ebay for £50. I can't play it very well but that's another story - not sure if it relates to woodwork.

When Hendrix was using strats they were top-of-the-line (woodwork tool related), as was the Gibson Flying V he used...

And I'm afraid you'll find they were/are alot different to your £50 ebay buy, especially in materials.

NB: As well as his vintage guitars (like collectable Stanleys) Clapton has been using Custom Shop built guitars for a number of years. They're like Clifton/LV/Nielsen in build/quality... Hardly like yours at all.

 

[mark w]

I said I wasn`t going to post again but I don`t want to leave David Charlesworth on his own and besides that I would like to help make this the longest thread ever (how long is that?)
Mignal, I won`t be taking my engineers straight edge to Cressing Temple, I`m sure the top craftsmen there will have their own. I didn`t call Paul Sellers manic, I said he is manic in everything he does referring to his work method, you are right though I was happy to say it and the bench flattening is laughable. Calling me an silly person is probably a sign you are losing the debate.
Cottonwood and Jacob, a flat bench top is beneficial when flattening a rough sawn or uneven board, it gives a reference from which to work from, you can use it to check the flatness of the board as you plane it flat. Jacob as someone who does not like to use unnecessary jigs (honing guides) and believes in keeping things simple, if you keep your bench top flat you will have no need for an additional board, I beam, jig or whatever, regarding the No 4, answer this question, is it more accurate to plane a long length of timber flat with a short plane or a long plane? As to my arm chair, I have little time for it at the moment, I have an influx of work, right now I should be typing out an order for timber but I have been distracted! Looks like you are wrong about the guitars, out of your depth again?
If I may I would like to thank David Charlesworth, I have copied Alan Peters regarding plane blades, I sharpen 3 at the same time for the same plane, changing them as they become blunt and then sharpening all 3 again. David`s sharpening method is by far the best, quick, accurate and easily repeatable. I would also like to thank Tom Lie-Nielsen for making my No 7 plane (a pleasure to use), Starrett for my straight edge, Veritas for my honing guide and the Ice Bear company for my water stones, all of which I use in my workshop day to day.
Now back to my order.

 

[Jacob]

....

And I'm afraid you'll find they were/are alot different to your £50 ebay buy, especially in materials.

Not a lot, and the materials perhaps the least important detail. In fact the rosewood finger boards on later (and cheaper) ones are arguably better than the one piece maple of the originals. They weren't top of the line then and aren't now - they are just a very good value working instrument, well made, well designed but with few frills (except as optional extras of course) - sometimes referred to as "the working mans guitar". They made some posh ones too but more cosmetic then useful.
As product designs they are brilliant and could be a lesson to our tool makers!
I've been reading about them - it's a new interest for me -I need something louder as my hearing goes!

 

[Jacob]

I said I wasn`t going to post again but I don`t want to leave David Charlesworth on his own and besides that I would like to help make this the longest thread ever (how long is that?)
Mignal, I won`t be taking my engineers straight edge to Cressing Temple, I`m sure the top craftsmen there will have their own. I didn`t call Paul Sellers manic, I said he is manic in everything he does referring to his work method, you are right though I was happy to say it and the bench flattening is laughable. Calling me an silly person is probably a sign you are losing the debate.
Cottonwood and Jacob, a flat bench top is beneficial when flattening a rough sawn or uneven board, it gives a reference from which to work from, you can use it to check the flatness of the board as you plane it flat. Jacob as someone who does not like to use unnecessary jigs (honing guides) and believes in keeping things simple, if you keep your bench top flat you will have no need for an additional board, I beam, jig or whatever, regarding the No 4, answer this question, is it more accurate to plane a long length of timber flat with a short plane or a long plane? As to my arm chair, I have little time for it at the moment, I have an influx of work, right now I should be typing out an order for timber but I have been distracted! Looks like you are wrong about the guitars, out of your depth again?
If I may I would like to thank David Charlesworth, I have copied Alan Peters regarding plane blades, I sharpen 3 at the same time for the same plane, changing them as they become blunt and then sharpening all 3 again. David`s sharpening method is by far the best, quick, accurate and easily repeatable. I would also like to thank Tom Lie-Nielsen for making my No 7 plane (a pleasure to use), Starrett for my straight edge, Veritas for my honing guide and the Ice Bear company for my water stones, all of which I use in my workshop day to day.
Now back to my order.

I see you have swallowed the party manifesto, hook, line and sinker! I think they should thank you for buying all their gadgets and bits of flash gear! 3 blades!! What on earth for? :lol:

 

[David C]

What a ludicrous question.....

Alan Peters book "I keep three spare irons and only sharpen when all 4 are dull". i.e. when planing up he wanted to get on with it instead of having frequent interruptions for sharpening.

It should be remembered that the Stanley blades of the sixties and seventies were at an all time low quality. They blunted in a few minutes. Alan worked with many exotic and abrasive timbers as well as home grown.

I find a modern harder replacement blade will do 3 or four times the work of a seventies Stanley.

David

 

[Trafalgar]

What a ludicrous question.....

Alan Peters book "I keep three spare irons and only sharpen when all 4 are dull". i.e. when planing up he wanted to get on with it instead of having frequent interruptions for sharpening.

It should be remembered that the Stanley blades of the sixties and seventies were at an all time low quality. They blunted in a few minutes. Alan worked with many exotic and abrasive timbers as well as home grown.

I find a modern harder replacement blade will do 3 or four times the work of a seventies Stanley.

David

I believe Alan Peters used Record planes. I've found that their irons seem to last a little longer than Stanley of roughly the same vintage.

 

[Paul Chapman]

What a ludicrous question.....

Couldn't agree more. I also keep several spare blades for most of my planes so that work can continue with a minimum of interruption.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

What a ludicrous question.....

Alan Peters book "I keep three spare irons and only sharpen when all 4 are dull". i.e. when planing up he wanted to get on with it instead of having frequent interruptions for sharpening.

Is that what all the orthodox brethren now do then? I know some of them try to get by using only a 7 as per A Peters.
IMHO it's not good to slavishly follow bits of text - not least because sooner or later it will be contradicted by an even more venerable old fart, and then what do you do!

It should be remembered that the Stanley blades of the sixties and seventies were at an all time low quality. They blunted in a few minutes. Alan worked with many exotic and abrasive timbers as well as home grown.......

Sharpening them altogether wouldn't actually save any time would it, or had he caught the multiple bevels virus? We should be able to get chapter and verse!*
I've got old Stanley blades which seem OK to me. Swings and roundabouts - the quicker they blunt the quicker they sharpen.

PS some slightly bonkers logic about 3 blades - it takes longer to swap them over than it does to sharpen them (if you do a little and often) so you might as well sharpen the one you have just taken out. Keeping 3 planes on the go would make more sense, if continuity was the issue.

 

[iNewbie]

Not a lot, and the materials perhaps the least important detail. In fact the rosewood finger boards on later (and cheaper) ones are arguably better than the one piece maple of the originals. They weren't top of the line then and aren't now - they are just a very good value working instrument, well made, well designed but with few frills (except as optional extras of course) - sometimes referred to as "the working mans guitar". They made some posh ones too but more cosmetic then useful.
As product designs they are brilliant and could be a lesson to our tool makers!
I've been reading about them - it's a new interest for me -I need something louder as my hearing goes!

Not a lot? Quite a lot actually, Jacob - I used to work for the UK Distributor of 'em. Some of 'em were plywood...

The Strat/Tele were top-of-the-line for Fender back then and are, now. They're their main model(s), so hardly a bottom level product....

I think you'll find (if you read a bit more) the Custom Shop models are as about top-of-the-line as it goes for the original companies product...

Your rosewood to maple assumption is pure opinion touted like its a fact. LOL!

Edit: they also did a Veneered rosewood board than the slab.

 

[Jacob]

Not a lot, and the materials perhaps the least important detail. In fact the rosewood finger boards on later (and cheaper) ones are arguably better than the one piece maple of the originals. They weren't top of the line then and aren't now - they are just a very good value working instrument, well made, well designed but with few frills (except as optional extras of course) - sometimes referred to as "the working mans guitar". They made some posh ones too but more cosmetic then useful.
As product designs they are brilliant and could be a lesson to our tool makers!
I've been reading about them - it's a new interest for me -I need something louder as my hearing goes!

Not a lot? Quite a lot actually, Jacob - I used to work for the UK Distributor of 'em. Some of 'em were plywood...

The Strat/Tele were top-of-the-line for Fender back then and are, now. They're their main model(s), so hardly a bottom level product....

I think you'll find (if you read a bit more) the Custom Shop models are as about top-of-the-line as it goes for the original companies product...

Your rosewood to maple assumption is pure opinion touted like its a fact. LOL!

Edit: they also did a Veneered rosewood board than the slab.

I'm just going by what I read. Could be wrong, I'm finding out as I go! It seems the one piece neck was intended to be disposable as heavy steel strings ( a newish concept in the 50s) would warp a normal neck and 2nd hand strats were noted for bent necks.
They were top of the Fender line yes but much cheaper than many alternative posh guitars.
Hendrix had a bog standard shop bought model which he kept (and played) all his life it says here, and played at Woodstock. Doesn't say he didn't play other guitars though.

 

[MIGNAL]

I said I wasn`t going to post again but I don`t want to leave David Charlesworth on his own and besides that I would like to help make this the longest thread ever (how long is that?)
Mignal, I won`t be taking my engineers straight edge to Cressing Temple, I`m sure the top craftsmen there will have their own. I didn`t call Paul Sellers manic, I said he is manic in everything he does referring to his work method, you are right though I was happy to say it and the bench flattening is laughable. Calling me an silly person is probably a sign you are losing the debate.

Not so clever are you? I didn't call you an silly person. I said 'stop being such an silly person'. As in stop acting like one.
That's a bit like calling someone 'manic in everything he does' and then later saying that you were just referring to his work method. Pretty derisory comments (laughable, manic) and obviously shows no respect for the man. He's using a 'craftsman technique', sometimes called 'feel'. Not engineering precision but it's good enough for him, it's also good enough for me. Maybe you should learn to have a bit more respect and humility for someone who displays those type of skills. You clearly don't have any respect at the moment.

 

[iNewbie]

I'm just going by what I read. Could be wrong, I'm finding out as I go! It seems the one piece neck was intended to be disposable as heavy steel strings ( a newish concept in the 50s) would warp a normal neck and 2nd hand strats were noted for bent necks.
They were top of the Fender line yes but much cheaper than many alternative posh guitars.
Hendrix had a bog standard shop bought model which he kept (and played) all his life it says here, and played at Woodstock. Doesn't say he didn't play other guitars though.

I don't think Leo's intention was to replace every neck though - serviceable in the field compared to a set-neck, sure. They were built to a budget, but they were a Pro-level guitar none-the-less.

Hendrix's were a stock model - but it weren't no chinese squire!


Back to the regular schedule of anarchy. :mrgreen:

 

[Jacob]

The books I'm reading are Hayne's Fender Strat Manual by Paul Balmer, with forward by Hank Marvin !! :shock: and The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer - which is very good and packed with info including masses of well presented stuff about theory - which I now see was my weakest link; I wish I'd had this book years ago I coulda been a famous rock star! Bert Weedon's "Play in a Day" just not good enough. It's several thousand days now and nobody has thrown their knickers at me (yet).

Yes mines a chinese Squier but it seems pretty good and they get a good write up. Quansheng equivalent perhaps. I have a few chinese items and they all seem to be pretty good - it's Japanese motors all over again.

 

[iNewbie]

The Denyer book is excellent - a 10 ten book Imho.

 

[Carl P]

As a musician I'd just like to say that I've heard some fantastic musicians make poor instruments sound wonderful, also some beginners make fantastic instruments sound like s**t. I believe there may be some parallels with woodwork here, sharp top class tools, super flat benches, accurate gauges etc are great, but.... it's not only about the tools you know.....

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[mark w]

Back from my workshop now, still not in my armchair!
Jacob the time saving bit is, you just change the blade, sharpening three blades at a time is time saving, doing most tasks in batch form is time saving, I think industry bears this out. Earlier I thought you said you were fed up with people quoting from the scriptures, excluding guitar history obviously!
Mignal, Mignal, Mignal, calm down or you may wet yourself, why should I respect "the man", I`ve never met him, as far as I`m concerned he`s come from nowhere and is now the self proclaimed savior of hand tool woodworking, he`s quite quick off the mark to put people down when he wants to.
Humility, I think you are going over the top now, this is a woodworking forum, I`m not about to go out and gun him down. You said something about a 'craftsman technique' called `feel`, I`ve been trying to look it up, Lie-Nielsen doesn`t have it for sale, nor Veritas, so yes I`m totally lacking!
A couple of other laugh out loud Paul Sellers things, his poetry!! and the trailer for his DVDs http://youtu.be/6Bj_QjUxv20, "techniques that have been lost for centuries", well maybe, if you`ve buried your head in Wales and have never heard of Alan Peters, James Krenov, Ernest Joyce, Robert Wearing, David Charlesworth, Robert Ingham, Tom Kealy and quite a few others. As I said "self proclaimed."
By the way Paul Sellers told me he has never heard of David Charlesworth, says it all to me, far to insular.