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craigs

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Now I apologise in advance, this may come off as arrogant, snobby, damn, even full of white male privilege, but i have been wondering the following.

Do we have any NEW medium-high end brands from the UK or common in the UK?

Again I apologise for my lack of knowledge on this, I always assumed brands like Record power, Metabo, clark, Draper, SiP, Charnwood, Kity, Scheppach etc. were either foreign, cheap, poor quality or just from a bygone age.

I look at the US, and see Sawstop, Rikon, Powermatic etc. and they seem decent bits of kit that are not necessarily cheap, but then not Felder prices

Then we have Axminster that seem to be an own-brand or reseller which again is indian made or Chinese and generally copies of other stuff.

So what do we have here? I know we can get Hammer, Felder, SCM etc. but there seems nothing between that and Draper.

Third apology, I'm not downplaying cheaper brands, it just seems to be my perception. and theres a lot of advice which says if you want quality, then buy used because its built better.

let my bashing commence.
 

Trevanion

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craigsalisbury":191ql84d said:
I know we can get Hammer, Felder, SCM etc. but there seems nothing between that and Draper.
That list is pretty much the closest thing to mid-range at the moment compared to say Martin and Panhans machines. Last I checked a fully decked out SCM TI145 Class was around £17K and the equivalent Martin was £30k.

I suppose you've got Startrite, ITech and Sedgwick which are pretty good mid-range machines.
 

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I’ve noticed recently OAV who have made very decent Woodworking machinery for years but under other companies brand names are being sold under the OAV brand in the UK, I’ve had one of their bandsaws for quite a few years & it’s a quality piece of kit. They used to manufacture some machinery for Axminster back in the day when Axminster had a very good reputation.

https://www.mwmachinery.co.uk/oav
 

craigs

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I suppose you've got Startrite, ITech and Sedgwick which are pretty good mid-range machines.
I don't know anything about iTech, but they seem on the cheaper end. I think you can get a decent minimax for around 10-12k which seems to be around the same as a Hammer....and they are essentially Felder lol
 

deema

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The only manufacturer of woodworking machines in the UK are Sedgwick. They are still a family owned company, and although they produce excellent machines, their range continues to decrease, and their level of innovation is almost zero. The UK market is tiny compared to either the continent or the USA where the industry is worth billions.

I have looked up all the retailers of woodworking equipment and everyone was a small entity with short form accounts. So, in all likelihood the UK market is c£100M at the top end, and probably a lot less. This isn’t really sufficient to enable a home grown manufacturing company to develop by servicing the local market.
 

Trevanion

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The problem is in the past we built machines too strong and they just won’t die! So what’s the point of buying a new machine for silly money with little change or innovation to an old one when the old one will last pretty much forever with a little maintenance.

Plus you couldn’t make anything of the same quality without serious cost.
 

craigs

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I completely agree, and that was what I was looking for. We use to make awesome stuff, I wasn't sure if we still did and from what i hear, that age has passed.
 

Doug B

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My experience with old Wadkin machinery isn’t that it lasts forever with little maintenance, over the last 12 years I’ve got rid of 4 Wadkin machines my planer being the last one to go & I ended up giving it away as although I advertised it at at a reasonable price no one was interested & that was the best of the four machines.
Whilst you can get certain parts for these machines they tend to be very expensive & if the part is no longer available it costs a fortune to get it made. Add to that the wear & tear issues of old machines & they soon become financially unviable in a business sense, it’s ok to spend all your spare time renovating an old lump of cast iron & it’s great to see but put an hourly rate to that & you’d never recoup your money.
The majority of machinery is no different to most gear these days it’s manufactured in the cheapest labour market, sometimes parts from abroad are assembled in the U.K. but even that’s rare, but it’s just the way it is.
 

craigs

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and i'm not even a business, and by no means wealthy, i'm just too lazy to restore something and struggle with parts etc. As was ingrained in me as a child, don't buy cheap twice, buy good once. so then im guessing its a Minimax or Hammer combo in my future, I doubt I can go wrong with that.

there's a guy on YT who i think is on his 3rd or 4th table saw in a similar amount of months lol.
 

Eric The Viking

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deema":3t56ioub said:
The only manufacturer of woodworking machines in the UK are Sedgwick. They are still a family owned company, and although they produce excellent machines, their range continues to decrease, and their level of innovation is almost zero. The UK market is tiny compared to either the continent or the USA where the industry is worth billions.

I have looked up all the retailers of woodworking equipment and everyone was a small entity with shirt form accounts. So, in all likelihood the UK market is c£100M at the top end, and probably a lot less. This isn’t really sufficient to enable a home grown manufacturing company to develop by servicing the local market.
I beg politely to differ on the last paragraph: Axminster submitted full accounts, at least for 17-18. I know this because I was looking at them (via CoHo) last month.

Rutlands, on the other hand, submitted filleted ones for the last year I could see (can't remember which, but I think it was also 17-18).
 

craigs

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I have looked up all the retailers of woodworking equipment and everyone was a small entity with shirt form accounts. So, in all likelihood the UK market is c£100M at the top end, and probably a lot less. This isn’t really sufficient to enable a home grown manufacturing company to develop by servicing the local market.


I beg politely to differ on the last paragraph: Axminster submitted full accounts, at least for 17-18. I know this because I was looking at them (via CoHo) last month.

Rutlands, on the other hand, submitted filleted ones.
I don't know what any of that means
 

Eric The Viking

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It's a typo - he means 'short form'.

In times past when people were more open, every limited company put its full accounts* into the public record. That is no longer necessary, and it's become quite hard to find out what the numbers are (unless they are volunteered to you).

Personally, I don't think it's in the public interest to have slackened-off the requirement to file fully: with the accounting software available nowadays, it's never been easier to complete the year-end, and I think we should be able to see who we are dealing with, as we always used to be able to.


*OK in standardized form, but useful nevertheless. I struggle to see the point of what's filed for small companies nowadays [and no prizes for guessing the change was "harmonization", either.]
 

craigs

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it all seems a bit slippery, but i know pipper all about accounts. I do know I think very highly of Axminster staff and service, but I wont buy any more of their own products and prefer brands that are highly regarded.
 

Eric The Viking

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craigsalisbury":1lt6q882 said:
it all seems a bit slippery, but i know pipper all about accounts. I do know I think very highly of Axminster staff and service, but I wont buy any more of their own products and prefer brands that are highly regarded.
I have had to deal with several companies' service/quality departments over woodworking kit, and I think Axminister's team is pretty good. I had issues with a machine bought from them (their own brand), and they were _extremely_ keen to (a) help me as fast as practical, and (b) find out the cause of my problem.

Not only that, I got some feedback from them later, as to what they had found when the faulty unit got back to them. By that time I was already happily using the replacement. They didn't need to do that, but my respect for them went up hugely as a consequence. I'm pretty certain the findings were fed back to the Chinese manufacturer too - Axminster maintain their own quality control operation over there too (or certainly used to). Yes, things are built down to a price, but that doesn't mean they don't care.

In contrast, another well-known vendor couldn't even correctly replace a unit that failed within 48 hours of arriving with me.
 

craigs

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I completely agree with service, I have yet to buy any of their machinery, I have some UJK stuff which is one of their brands and that's pretty good if not a little overpriced (i'm looking at you parf guide system that's essentially a couple of rulers and pins/forstner bit). the rider planes though.....hmm just no,
 

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craigsalisbury":g9nlnncl said:
Now I apologise in advance, this may come off as arrogant, snobby, damn, even full of white male privilege, but i have been wondering the following.

Do we have any NEW medium-high end brands from the UK or common in the UK?

Again I apologise for my lack of knowledge on this, I always assumed brands like Record power, Metabo, clark, Draper, SiP, Charnwood, Kity, Scheppach etc. were either foreign, cheap, poor quality or just from a bygone age.

I look at the US, and see Sawstop, Rikon, Powermatic etc. and they seem decent bits of kit that are not necessarily cheap, but then not Felder prices

Then we have Axminster that seem to be an own-brand or reseller which again is indian made or Chinese and generally copies of other stuff.

So what do we have here? I know we can get Hammer, Felder, SCM etc. but there seems nothing between that and Draper.

Third apology, I'm not downplaying cheaper brands, it just seems to be my perception. and theres a lot of advice which says if you want quality, then buy used because its built better.

let my bashing commence.
Hi Craig, you do realise where Sawstop, Rikon and Powermatic etc are manufactured?
 

craigs

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hence "common in the UK". but like most things made in china, you get what you pay for. i just wondered what medium priced options we had here UK manufactured or available as new product of decent quality.
 

deema

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What machines are you thinking of getting?

If your only interested in new, and is for either hobby or a small professional workshop you won’t go wrong buying Sedgwick.

If your interested in a little work, I don’t believe you can beat the SCM L’Invincible range. They are IMO some of the best ‘simple’ mechanism machines you can find and sell for very little. I have at the moment in my work shop the following table saws, which I’ve listed in order or how well built I believe them to be.

SCM Si15F
Wadkin AGS10 & 12
Sedgwick TA315, Sedgwick LK
Startrite 275 (no longer as I sold it)

With the exception of the TA315 all of the rest are obsolete. However, they are all extremely well built and will last multiple life times with only a little TLC every now and again.

I have a Felder bandsaw which IMO is no where near as well built as any of the above. The Startrite 14S5 is IMO the best bandsaw you can buy closely followed by the Startrite 352......both of which are obsolete......common theme!
 

craigs

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Oh i'm just planning in my head what i need to budget for in the next couple of years and looking at my options.

combination machine (probably Hammer or Minimax)
16" Bandsaw (no idea, maybe Startrite)
Pillar drill (no idea)
Drum Sander (maybe Jet)

So pretty much everything :D

I started this hobby 2 years ago and its happily swallowed all the money I have thrown at it...and that's OK. Its never going to make me a living, but im ok with pocket money and maybe machine payments.

Thanks for all the replies so far.
 

Eric The Viking

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How much floor area do you have?

I've not owned one, but I understand combi machines need a lot of space all round them.

Right there with you on the bandsaw, however - easily the most useful machine I have, with the pillar drill a close second. The bandsaw needs little space, incidentally. Mine is close to the workshop door, so long things can be accommodated.
 
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