Lee Valley steel honing plate, did not like it

[ali27]

Hi guys. I bought 2 lapping plates with the idea to use one for about 1000 grit and the other for finishing
with 1 micron.

-One of the plates already had rust on it
-It's quite easy to see that the plates are not flat, there is a clear wave in the plates. For such small plates
and such poor flatness. Really disappointing.
-I did not find the diamond paste to embed very well in the plates, but move around more. I tried pressing
them in more with the back of a plane blade.

Now to be fair, LV writes in the description that the flatness is within 5 thou
of the plate, so the plates I received were probably still within specs. But then my conclusion is that the 5 thou
flatness is really poor. It should be much flatter. The sides are clearly high and the middle is hollow.

For the price these plates are being sold, I can only recommend my fellow woodworkers to stay away from them.

Ali

 

[Trafalgar]

Supposed to be flat to one thousandth:

"...the bottom and sides are machined, and the top is ground flat to within 0.001" over the entire surface..."

 

[Noel]

Ali, Rob Lee is a member here so drop him a line and he'll help.

 

[ali27]

Supposed to be flat to one thousandth:

"...the bottom and sides are machined, and the top is ground flat to within 0.001" over the entire surface..."

Hi, I should have written steel honing plate. I have the lapping plate as well and that one was very nicely
flat. Was still not entirely happy with that product. I felt like the grit did not embed well in the plate.

I meant this product:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.a ... 72&p=69438

I will change the topic title

 

[Trafalgar]

I see. Thanks.

 

[matthewwh]

With all metal products there is a small possibility that they will 'move' long after heat treatment and quality control, it's just the nature of the material.

I'm sure that a reputable manufacturer like Veritas will have done everything they possibly can to produce a good quality product.

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to contact the retailer who sold it to you, there is a good chance that they will refund or replace it, or they can talk it through and there will be some straightforward explanation like you need to use oil or wax or something to hold the grit in place.

If it is a manufacturing fault, this also means that the occurrence of a defective one is recorded, for you it is a 100% reject rate based on a sample of 1, but that may be the only defective one in 100,000 units produced.

 

[ali27]

Hi Matthew. I dont think its a manufacturing problem. The product
has a flatness within 5 thou as stated in the product description. That
kind of flatness is just not good enough for a plate the size of a typical
waterstone. For the price it's being sold that is quite poor to be honest.

But then again the description said the flatness was within 5 thou.
I was under the impression that 5 thou was very little. Well it is, but
not for a plate that size.

Poor flatness, very rough finish, not the best steel for the task(debatable)
results in a poor product.

 

[Trafalgar]

I have no need for these things but I can't help but wonder why one would be flat to one-thousandth and the other only to five thousandths. If you lap a back on the lapping plate then proceed to using the honing plate in your day-to-day honing where the flat face is routinely 'backed off,' then over time it would seem you would undo what was accomplished on the finer lapping plate.

 

[iNewbie]

Hi Matthew. I dont think its a manufacturing problem. The product
has a flatness within 5 thou as stated in the product description. That
kind of flatness is just not good enough for a plate the size of a typical
waterstone. For the price it's being sold that is quite poor to be honest.

But then again the description said the flatness was within 5 thou.
I was under the impression that 5 thou was very little. Well it is, but
not for a plate that size.

Poor flatness, very rough finish, not the best steel for the task(debatable)
results in a poor product.

It does say in the description:

"The machining process creates a regular surface pattern, imparting a very slight texture to help capture the diamond grit without compromising overall flatness. In use, the diamond particles readily embed into the softer steel, combining to form a durable, fast-cutting abrasive surface. "

Its $25 over there so its as cheap as chips - until it comes here...

 

[iNewbie]

I have no need for these things but I can't help but wonder why one would be flat to one-thousandth and the other only to five thousandths. If you lap a back on the lapping plate then proceed to using the honing plate in your day-to-day honing where the flat face is routinely 'backed off,' then over time it would seem you would undo what was accomplished on the finer lapping plate.

Its made at a price point. The larger plate is 4 times the price - you pay for engineering tolerances.

 

[MIGNAL]

It states 5 thou over the entire surface of the plate. In the real world the back of a chisel or plane blade is going to be far better than that, partly because the blade isn't going to be in contact with the entire surface at any one time. There's going to be a certain amount of 'averaging' if you use a random pattern.

 

[ali27]

The bigger lapping plate is much bigger than the honing plate and much
flatter. It's way heavier as well. It's a quality product though my opinion
is they should have chosen a softer steel that embeds grit better.

The flatness sucks for such a small plate even if it only 25usd. A small plate is
much easier to get flat than a bigger one.

You know your waterstone needs flattening when you can easily see
a clear bow in it. A flat sharpening surface gives the best results. Averaging
does not.

Not sure if the math is correct, but 5 thou over the entire length. The plate
is I think 20 cm long. A plane blade is 5 or 6cm usually. Thats like 1.25
to 1.5 thou deviation when the back of the blade is touching the plate.
Might be wrong though.

If they can't give a good tolerance for the price than they should either
sell it for a higher price or not sell at all.

I cannot recommend this product to my fellow woodworkers.

Perhaps buy a cast iron plate about the same size and bring it to
a machinist shop to have it flattened. Shouldnt be expensive I think
for such a small size.

 

[MIGNAL]

What do you mean by a flat sharpening surface gives the best results? Honestly, that sounds like you are approaching this from some sort of theoretical approach to sharpness. A slightly dished stone isn't going to prevent the edge from being just as sharp as one that is much flatter.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Tap...tap...tap...tap...here comes another one...

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I started as an oilstone user (two sided carborundum, fine and coarse) 35+ years ago as a carpenter's apprentice, and strayed from oilstones into waterstone territory about a dozen years ago. After a couple of years there (and toying with Scary Sharp), I'm firmly back in oilstone territory, using primarily a vintage Washita and hard black Arkansas.

When I used waterstones, I did not need a honing plate or any flattening method. I can't remember who told me, or who wrote it, but you need three waterstones. You flatten A against B and then B against C and finally C against A and you (supposedly) have flat. I could never get over the watery mess of that sharpening method and since that fit of sharpening madness, have returned to tried and true oilstones (by the way, I'm an O1 steel user, with some vintage tools that are probably W1. I believe there is an A2 iron in the mix, but I don't deliberately purchase that material. I do have a couple of PM-V11 irons I'm playing with, but the reason for them is that I own a powder metal manufacturing plant and am interested in seeing how that particular material behaves).

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi ali

What is your experience of the plates in use?

I tested the plate prior to their production, and mine looks the same as the production version. I have used a range of diamond pastes, from 45.0 to 0.5 micron, and never experienced any problem. Are you making a statement from the theoretical or the practical stand point?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Fromey]

Does honing with powdered grit not work using float glass? (I'm sure someone here knows the flatness tolerance of float glass). If so, surely that would be a cheaper alternative. Just throw the glass in the recycling once it gets too rough.

 

[bugbear]

Does honing with powdered grit not work using float glass? (I'm sure someone here knows the flatness tolerance of float glass). If so, surely that would be a cheaper alternative. Just throw the glass in the recycling once it gets too rough.

No - you want the grit to embed (lapping paradox)

BugBear

 

[Fromey]

I see. Then maybe good quality MDF? After all, it's useful for stropping. Lastly, I'm sure I once saw a video of someone sticking photocopy paper onto float glass and then using that with honing paste or some such on it; but I can't find the video to check my memory against.

 

[hansonread]

Anyone who is worried if something is 3 thousands of an inch, 0.0762mm out of flatness over its entire length, which would work out at about 1.5 thou on your average blade, clearly isn't A: Having to earn a living from making things, B: Hasn't taken into consideration seasonal movement in the wooden things that they produce, which in practice would be far greater than 3 thou, and C: Clearly has way to much time on there hands.

Possibly the most controversial thing to be heard on here for a long time, cover your ears if your easily offended, but it really doesn't matter if your blade isn't ABSOLUTELY flat. as long as it functions correctly for the purpose in which it is intended, then who cares!!
Im pretty sure that, given what you are sharpening, is a hand tool, an object that you use BY HAND that there is anyone here that can work to those sorts of tolerances, in a sensible amount of time, working with wood. if they can do it at all.

Arguably, some of the finest furniture ever made, was hundreds of years before anyone could even measure such small tolerances, let alone work to them, and they seemed to get on okay?!