Jig request

[neilyweely]

I'm not sure I have put this in the right section, so apologies if I am wrong, but.....

I have a load of doors to knock up, and need to make myself a jig to cut the rail and stile parts. I have the router bits (blue tornado?? Are they OK?) and obviously a table, but in the past I have had problems getting a perfect stile cut (stile? the end grain cut needed to join the parts. The shorter cut) and my attempts at jigs have not been so great. I have some toggle clamps, and plenty of spare mdf/ ply/ wood. Just lacking inspiration really. I have made a few kitchens up for folk, but would like mine to be really something! :lol:

Incidentally I saw some units today and the doors were mdf, cut with a rail and stile set, and they looked really good. Much nicer than the tat I have fitted for one of the sheds (who shall remain nameless for fear of redundancy) I have been working for. Nice trad style doors, raised panel but still quite simple, and painted pale blue. As I said they looked surprisingly good. I was gonna use some elm and oak I have, but am now thinking about it.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Neil

 

[maltrout512]

Nothing wrong with the tornados thats what I use, even the vertical panel cutters. When cutting the internal to mate with the stile you need piece of wood at the back of your rail to stop any breakout. Have a look at my blog (kitchen) I made for a customer tail end of last year. I don't have a router table, but I do have a very useful woodrat. All the work there was done with the rat and blue tornado cutters.

All the best

 

[markymark12]

Hello

If i describe how i go about this it may be of help to some, dependant on your stock.

When ever i make up doors/ windows etc the first thing to do following planing up stock, is to cut all scribes/tenons i always leave the rails too wide. Ie if you are finishing to say 3" then i would machine it out at 4"/3.5" in width then scribe/tenon and then the rails are run back through the thicknesser to take out the blowout out and reduce down to the final width. Then i run any moulds, grooves, rebates, after.
I still have a backup piece on the crosscut slide to reduce the splintering but it is easy as it is always backing up square stock, so there is no dealing with left and right handed moulded stock, coming into and of of the cutter head, otherwise ever time i change moulds heights etc, i have to keep shortening the backup to match to the new setting.

Hope it helps you.
I have found that some timbers are prone to blowing out, even when they are backed up, not badly but more of a crumbling of the fibres at the end of the cut
Doing it the way i do now takes very little extra time and i never have to worry about that one last piece getting damaged when i least need it.

 

[Tony Spear]

I have had problems getting a perfect end grain cut needed to join the parts.
Any help greatly appreciated.

Neil

What problem are you having? Accuracy or breakout are the two classic problems with end grain cuts on a router table.

 

[neilyweely]

Tony - Accuracy and breakout? Precisely. :lol:

Marky Mark - I think i follow. What I'm gonna do is take the laptop down to the WS tomorrow and have a play with some scrap/ excess timber and see if I can do what you say (what I think you are saying). The problem I have been having is that the rail and stile parts just are not as perfect fitting as I want them to be. I'll see if I can get a photo of the ones in the nursery to show you what I mean.

Malcolm - Thanks mate, I'll certainly have a look at that ; it may be that I have seen it before as I have researched this thru the forum.

So, in essence I should cut, with a crosscut sled, the end grain first before cutting any work with the grain? Is this right? This is what I have always done, so is nice to know I am not totally useless. Now you are all gonna tell me 'NO!!' and I will have made a fool of myself, again!

Thanks for your help so far. I am sorry, but feel sure I'm gonna be back for more.

Cheers

Neil

 

[markymark12]

Hello Neil

You have it spot on.

It is standard/good practice to machine the end grain before the long edges. this is true of almost all wood machining operations. There are exceptions as with everything in life.

The only thing i do differently is as explained i always machine and leave the rails a little too wide then once the end grain is scribed/tenoned, i run the stuff back through twice to remove any breakout which may have occurred, more often than not the spelch block prevents 95% of it, but it is always the bit you most need that goes wrong.

It seems long winded but even with internal and external doors you are normally only looking at 3 rails to do. Kitchen Doors just the two in the main.

When ever i make any new moulding up, i always keep a sample of the joint and mould on the shelve to make it quick to set the machine back up to run more. As most shops do. You can use the sample of the sections to determine the overall length you need to crosscut and scribe to, to make the overall length correct when glued up.

Any questions please feel free to ask.

 

[Tony Spear]

Neil,

When you're making the cuts on the ends of the rails are you trying to do it in one pass?

If so this could explain part of your problem. The normal procedure would be to make 2 or even 3 passes, moving the fence back after each pass (remember to do all the ends before moving the fence!). The last pass should only take off a few mm. to give the cleanest possible finish.

As far as breakout is concerned, as has already been said, using a piece of scrap behind the workpiece and leaving it slightly oversize and doing the final sizing and then cutting the groove and moulding after cutting the ends will help.

How solid is your sled? Does it wobble in the slot? Are you holding the workpiece against the sled purely by hand or is it firmly clamped? Are you running the cutter too fast? These large diameter cutters need to be run pretty damn slow!

I must admit that I don't like these things very much and although I've still got my set, I find that all the messing about reassembling the cutter for the two separate operations is such a pain in the a..e that I've mainly gone back to conventional haunched M & T joints and only use the fielding cutter from the door set.

 

[Grinding One]

Neil,

When you're making the cuts on the ends of the rails are you trying to do it in one pass?

If so this could explain part of your problem. The normal procedure would be to make 2 or even 3 passes, moving the fence back after each pass (remember to do all the ends before moving the fence!). The last pass should only take off a few mm. to give the cleanest possible finish.

As far as breakout is concerned, as has already been said, using a piece of scrap behind the workpiece and leaving it slightly oversize and doing the final sizing and then cutting the groove and moulding after cutting the ends will help.

How solid is your sled? Does it wobble in the slot? Are you holding the workpiece against the sled purely by hand or is it firmly clamped? Are you running the cutter too fast? These large diameter cutters need to be run pretty damn slow!

I must admit that I don't like these things very much and although I've still got my set, I find that all the messing about reassembling the cutter for the two separate operations is such a pain in the a..e that I've mainly gone back to conventional haunched M & T joints and only use the fielding cutter from the door set.

Do you guys have the plastic handle push blocks over there??If you do ,screw a block of wood to it,make two of them,and as you have a set up once you push into the block, you now have repeatablity for the next time....

 

[Tony Spear]

Neil,

not sure if I've done the link thingy correctly but this post started by PerranOak in the "Jigs and Tips" forum should be helpful to you.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=32297

 

[neilyweely]

Tony, Grindingone, Markymark

Thanks folks. I do use a router table quite a lot, and know to do things gently gently, so I am making 3 or 4 passes on the rail AND stile parts. The idea of keeping a machined part on the shelf is great - I had thought of that myself before but always end up forgetting. There doesn't seem to be any movement in the sled, but I am going to make a new one up anyway.

I amnot sure what you mean, Grinding one, when you say about screwing the wood to the push blocks in order to get repeatability? Do you mean to use the plastic push blocks as part of the sled? I may try this anyway. And this time I am going to use three toggle clamps too, so it should be real solid.

And thanks for that link Tony, I'll have a look this afternoon.

I am wondering if I could get my hands on a CHEAP commercially made sled, maybe 2nd hand off the bay? Or would I still be better off making one? Mmmmhhhh, some of the purchased jigs etc I have are a bit rubbish*y and I am reluctant to gain another one.

Thanks folks.

Neil

 

[Grinding One]

Tony, Grindingone, Markymark

Thanks folks. I do use a router table quite a lot, and know to do things gently gently, so I am making 3 or 4 passes on the rail AND stile parts. The idea of keeping a machined part on the shelf is great - I had thought of that myself before but always end up forgetting. There doesn't seem to be any movement in the sled, but I am going to make a new one up anyway.

I amnot sure what you mean, Grinding one, when you say about screwing the wood to the push blocks in order to get repeatability? Do you mean to use the plastic push blocks as part of the sled? I may try this anyway. And this time I am going to use three toggle clamps too, so it should be real solid.

And thanks for that link Tony, I'll have a look this afternoon.

I am wondering if I could get my hands on a CHEAP commercially made sled, maybe 2nd hand off the bay? Or would I still be better off making one? Mmmmhhhh, some of the purchased jigs etc I have are a bit rubbish*y and I am reluctant to gain another one.

Thanks folks.

Neil

What I am talking about is a Plastic Hold Down (Flat plastic with handle moulded on it at 90*)with a bit of rubber on the bottom-3"x5".Can be had at WWW.Sommerfeldtools.com ( safety push block).Screw on a 4"x8" x3/4" piece of wood,when you make the push into the router bit you have a finished set up for next time...Or pickup his router bit set up jig

 

[forcemax]

Neil,

not sure if I've done the link thingy correctly but we are the factory of jigs and accessories for slow speed wet sharpener,if it could help you,please feel free to visit our website,

Good luck,friend

www.forcemax-handtools.com[/url]

 

[neilyweely]

Grindingone - thanks mate, I have some of those, so will give it a go tomorrow. I understand now sorry!

Forcemax - not sure if I am misunderstanding you, or you me, but all I can find on your website is tape-measures and a sharpening station. I would be interested in a cheap supply of jigs and such but am not sure you are them? If you have other stuff other than that which I have seen on the site you quoted then let me (and others) know and I'll have a look.

Cheers again guys

Neil