Amateurrestorer
Established Member
Does anyone have any experience of using japanese handsaws?I seem to have found an outlet on ebay and I was hoping to get one suitable for cutting dovetail joints.Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Japanese hand saws
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Wiley Horne
Established Member
Hello,
I use Japanese saws. When starting out, the first decision was Japanese vs. western. It sounds like that is where you may be. It's a tough decision, because it costs money to make an adequate test.
To test a Japanese saw for dovetails, you could try the rip side of a small ryoba, 180mm to 210mm range. But a backed saw (dozuki) is better for most people.
Oddly, it is very difficult to find a rip-tooth dozuki in a changeable-blade saw. The least-expensive rip dozukis I know of are those sold by Lee Valley--one Korean-made in the $25-30 range IIRC, and one at about $80.
There are a couple of changeable-blade dozuki-type saws with composite toothing patterns that are close enough to rip to do the job. For example, an offering by Japan Woodworker, catalog #19.303.0, which is a Gyokucho, 19-point, backed, composite tooth saw advertised as a dovetail saw. I have this saw and it will do the job. $38.95 + shipping. I'm listing these as benchmarks--you can probably find the same saw closer to home. There used to be a Gyokucho 'Sunchild' which was OK also, but I don't see that one advertised anymore, at least in the US. You may be able to find it in the UK.
One type of Japanese 'dovetail' saw I would advise against--for the purpose of sawing dovetails--is the 25-30 point dozuki, which will soon be found to be a crosscut saw. It will work, because you're only going about 3/4" to the scribe line, but is slow and unconvincing in the cut. It is a good saw for tenon shoulders.
If you do decide you want to commit to Japanese saws, then there are many more good options, but they will be more expensive.
Wiley
I use Japanese saws. When starting out, the first decision was Japanese vs. western. It sounds like that is where you may be. It's a tough decision, because it costs money to make an adequate test.
To test a Japanese saw for dovetails, you could try the rip side of a small ryoba, 180mm to 210mm range. But a backed saw (dozuki) is better for most people.
Oddly, it is very difficult to find a rip-tooth dozuki in a changeable-blade saw. The least-expensive rip dozukis I know of are those sold by Lee Valley--one Korean-made in the $25-30 range IIRC, and one at about $80.
There are a couple of changeable-blade dozuki-type saws with composite toothing patterns that are close enough to rip to do the job. For example, an offering by Japan Woodworker, catalog #19.303.0, which is a Gyokucho, 19-point, backed, composite tooth saw advertised as a dovetail saw. I have this saw and it will do the job. $38.95 + shipping. I'm listing these as benchmarks--you can probably find the same saw closer to home. There used to be a Gyokucho 'Sunchild' which was OK also, but I don't see that one advertised anymore, at least in the US. You may be able to find it in the UK.
One type of Japanese 'dovetail' saw I would advise against--for the purpose of sawing dovetails--is the 25-30 point dozuki, which will soon be found to be a crosscut saw. It will work, because you're only going about 3/4" to the scribe line, but is slow and unconvincing in the cut. It is a good saw for tenon shoulders.
If you do decide you want to commit to Japanese saws, then there are many more good options, but they will be more expensive.
Wiley
ByronBlack
Established Member
axminster do a nice range of japanese saws, i've owned many of their range and think they do quite a nice job. However, for dovetails, the best saw i've used was a 'sunchild' dozuki available from thanet tools.
engineer one
Established Member
lot depends upon your experience of sawing, whether it is dovetails or anything else. :?
japanese saws work on the pull stroke,so it is a different learning curve,
and they take less effort to use, but if you are used to a european saw, you may find the adaptation difficult.
try axminster they offer a range.
maybe you can tell us who you found on ebay, and then we could tell you
more.
paul :wink:
japanese saws work on the pull stroke,so it is a different learning curve,
and they take less effort to use, but if you are used to a european saw, you may find the adaptation difficult.
try axminster they offer a range.
maybe you can tell us who you found on ebay, and then we could tell you
more.
paul :wink:
dchenard
Established Member
After using a few Japanese saws, I'm a convert...
Wiley knows quite a bit about Japanese saws, but he's refraining from sending you on the slippery slope, like he did for me :shock:
I've heard good things about the sunchild saw, worth a look if you can ferret one.
One saw that has received good reviews is the Z-Saw. Even though it's a crosscut saw, it works quite fast for cutting dovetails, at least that's what the review in Fine Woodworking said. I'll buy one when I drive through Montréal, there's a store there that carries them.
Meanwhile I've been using the LV rip Dozuki that Wiley mentioned (the $80 one, http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=48338&cat=1,42884), and it is a great saw. It cuts noticeably faster than my Lie-Nielsen DT saw without putting any weight on it, takes not much more than half the kerf of the LN saw, and is quite acceptable at crosscuts (at least when cutting off the half-pins in a DT joint).
DC
Waiting to see if Yataiki-san will make two saws for me
Wiley knows quite a bit about Japanese saws, but he's refraining from sending you on the slippery slope, like he did for me :shock:
I've heard good things about the sunchild saw, worth a look if you can ferret one.
One saw that has received good reviews is the Z-Saw. Even though it's a crosscut saw, it works quite fast for cutting dovetails, at least that's what the review in Fine Woodworking said. I'll buy one when I drive through Montréal, there's a store there that carries them.
Meanwhile I've been using the LV rip Dozuki that Wiley mentioned (the $80 one, http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=48338&cat=1,42884), and it is a great saw. It cuts noticeably faster than my Lie-Nielsen DT saw without putting any weight on it, takes not much more than half the kerf of the LN saw, and is quite acceptable at crosscuts (at least when cutting off the half-pins in a DT joint).
DC
Waiting to see if Yataiki-san will make two saws for me
David C
In Memorium
For dovetailing in thin hardwood, there is only one that I have found which does a good job.
It is the Sunchild dozuki which is available from The Craftsmans Choice, Thanet tools, Ashford in Kent, ask for Sean. I wrote about this on my blog which can be found on my website www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk
Dog lovers may enjoy The Mawgan Diaries which Pat posts about our young red and white setter who is kept in order by the old boy Ruan.
The blade no longer has "Sunchild" etched on it, but it is the same and is made by Gyokucho.
The blades has Razorsaw-Japan, 0.3-240 no. S-311, written on it and costs about £30, replacement blades about £12 -15.
0.3mm is the blade thickness and 240 the blade length.
As Wiley has mentioned, most dozukis sold in the west are for crosscutting softwood and make very slow progress when ripping hardwood. The points are also too slim and delicate resulting in broken teeth.
Both Dick and Japan woodworker also sell Gryokucho saws so it may be worth pursuing with them, but in UK it is simpler to get from Thanet.
David Charlesworth
It is the Sunchild dozuki which is available from The Craftsmans Choice, Thanet tools, Ashford in Kent, ask for Sean. I wrote about this on my blog which can be found on my website www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk
Dog lovers may enjoy The Mawgan Diaries which Pat posts about our young red and white setter who is kept in order by the old boy Ruan.
The blade no longer has "Sunchild" etched on it, but it is the same and is made by Gyokucho.
The blades has Razorsaw-Japan, 0.3-240 no. S-311, written on it and costs about £30, replacement blades about £12 -15.
0.3mm is the blade thickness and 240 the blade length.
As Wiley has mentioned, most dozukis sold in the west are for crosscutting softwood and make very slow progress when ripping hardwood. The points are also too slim and delicate resulting in broken teeth.
Both Dick and Japan woodworker also sell Gryokucho saws so it may be worth pursuing with them, but in UK it is simpler to get from Thanet.
David Charlesworth
Philipp
Established Member
For cuttintg dovetails I can highly recommend this one:
http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield182
Great tool, great value.
Generally, I wouldn't choose a fine Dizuki too big, since it really is difficult to work with.
I have also this one http://www.fine-tools.com/G309320.htm
but find it too big for most of the jobs to be done.
Regards
Philipp
http://www.fine-tools.com/G312180.htm#zield182
Great tool, great value.
Generally, I wouldn't choose a fine Dizuki too big, since it really is difficult to work with.
I have also this one http://www.fine-tools.com/G309320.htm
but find it too big for most of the jobs to be done.
Regards
Philipp
RogerS
Established Member
I bought my first from Axminster and got hooked.
I then bought a load more from jinn on ebay ...good price, good service and a good product as far as I can see.
I then bought a load more from jinn on ebay ...good price, good service and a good product as far as I can see.
dedee
Established Member
I have the APTC Ryoba and Dozuki and thought they were excellent.
Then I realised what I was comparing them against ie old, blunt and abused handsaws. After a bit of TLC I found that those old handsaws cut equally as well as the Jap ones. I found that a sharpened and correctly set (rip) Disston back saw (8") cut through 3/4" oak to a depth of 1" with just one more stroke then the much longer Ryoba and was no harder to control.
Andy
Then I realised what I was comparing them against ie old, blunt and abused handsaws. After a bit of TLC I found that those old handsaws cut equally as well as the Jap ones. I found that a sharpened and correctly set (rip) Disston back saw (8") cut through 3/4" oak to a depth of 1" with just one more stroke then the much longer Ryoba and was no harder to control.
Andy
engineer one
Established Member
i think this is a truism too many of us have found sawing difficult because of blunt push saws. when you start again, you pick the old saw out of the box, and hope that it will cut.
then you go down the "alf" slope of learning sharpening :lol:
paul :wink:
then you go down the "alf" slope of learning sharpening :lol:
paul :wink:
Amateurrestorer
Established Member
I don't think I will be going down any slippery slopes when it comes to sharpening saw blades,I have tried it in the past but my eyes are'nt what they used to be and I find the job too time consuming. I have spotted these saws on ebay and wonder if they are cheap tat or worth a gamble. http://stores.ebay.co.uk/HAND-TOOL-BARGAINS . By the way I purchased a low angle veritas jack plane today and forgot to mention it to the wife (as you do, being a coward ) so any expensive purchases will have to wait until I find out whether she is going to murder me or what!
engineer one
Established Member
actually a decent thought is to checkthe lidl website and see whennext they will have a japanese saw on sale, that is a good way to start :lol:
paul :wink:
where do we send the flowers after the wife finds the la?
paul :wink:
where do we send the flowers after the wife finds the la?
Amateurrestorer
Established Member
Paul I don't think they will ever find the body. Good idea about LIDL though,my mate bought a saw for £6 off them and loves it.Cheers John.
engineer one
Established Member
yeh i suppose doncaster anyway, but a place called fishponds brings a whole new meaning to "sleeping with the fishes" :lol: :twisted:
paul :wink:
paul :wink:
dedee
Established Member
Amateurrestorer":72qbu026 said:
I agree. Ask around here nicely and you might find someone willing to do it for you.....And she comes highly recommended. :wink:
Andy
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