Is it worth me making standard windows?

[Doug71]

I am a one man joinery shop, I seem to spend most of my time making odd sized and shaped doors and windows, some to match originals and some because you just can't buy them off the peg. I am quite traditional (old fashioned!) in my ways, I hardly ever use friction hinges and have never made a window with a multipoint espagnolette type lock.

I am worried that I am getting behind the times, but is there any point me trying to compete against a shop set up to just make stormproof windows all day? They all seem to have spray booths etc and knock out finished windows quicker and cheaper then I ever could.

I am pricing some curved and odd sized windows and doors for a barn conversion at the moment but there are about 15 standard windows as well which I don't fancy doing because I am not set up for that amount.

Is it worth me upgrading my spindle moulder and buying the window cutter sets or would I still be way behind places like this?

http://www.tawindows.com/windowbuilder/

I generally keep busy with what I do, I just feel I need to move with the times a bit.

Doug

 

[dynax]

if it was me i would stay the same and just sub out for the standard windows, as you say others are geared up for this which will speed up the turn around time, so put in the order for the standards while you concentrate on the other and if you time it right everything should be ready at the same time,

 

[meccarroll]

Hi Doug,

I have read your post with interest and can understand where you are coming from. I mainly work on site as a sub-contractor mainly day rated work so don't make a fortune but it pays the bills. I sometimes make windows and doors mainly for private (none commercial) customers and like you the joinery is almost always of a curved or irregular size, I think I get this work because the big boys can't make them reasonably priced.

If I had your current job in hand I'd be concerned about subbing out the 15 standard windows because it's very unlikely the profile will match yours also the quality will likely be dissimilar too. You could look at this is several ways but I'd be wanting to keep the entire contract myself if possible.

1. You could do the bespoke work yourself then sub-out the standard windows as suggested, the main problem here is that you then take responsibility for paying up front for the 15 standard windows and have the responsibility of dealing with the entire process! You will need to have a margin added to the standard windows to compensate for your time and responsibility say 25% - 50% upscale. Subbing out the work sounds ok but how competitive are they once you add a margin? So could you now make better windows for a similar price?

2. Make the bespoke joinery yourself and find someone else to make the standard windows but have the client pay them directly (you ask for 15% commission, which is reasonable and standard in some contracts) this way you are only responsible for your work but get some payment for your involvement in the standard windows as well.

3. Look at buying some cutters for the standard windows so you can make them yourself. Don't know what spindle moulder you have but it must already cope with most of the production work for windows otherwise you can't be making them so look at the cutters you actually need to make the standard windows for this job. You may not need a complete set, see if your current spindle could possibly do the work with just the cutters you need.

I try not to look at the entire investment as a complete rite off, it's not, because you can sell the cutter set on after doing the job and build any loss in value into the entire job. When I buy new machinery or tooling (used or new) I always factor in a resale value and take that from the purchase price to come up with a true figure of what the item actually is costing me, (what's my loss if I re-sell) in real terms.

For joinery work two spindle moulders is a real bonus and not a bad investment, it's one machine that you are continuously changing blocks or cutters on so having two is very useful, I have three

Mark

 

[tomatwark]

Let the big boys do it.

I used to make windows, along side my furniture business.

I stopped in 2010 when the building regs changed, the big boys will be able to offer energy performance certificates.

You would be better to by them in and fit them, and just make the odd ball ones when you need to.

This why there are not so many small joinery shops around now as, it is far easier and cheaper to get someone with a CNC set up and dipping and spraying equipment to make them.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think there is a 'halfway house' -we specialize in orangeries and have designed a flush high performance window on friction stays that allows us to make sashes up to 900 x 1800. The tooling we use is stack tooling with disposable tips. We dont have CNC, but do use machines with digitsl read outs so can reproduce settings quite quickly.

We have looked into subbing out standard casements, but the problem is that most of our projects are on period houses and customers want us to match sections sizes so that sightlines are close to originals. If you buy in standard windows you will probably find sash stiles cannot be altered from the company standard, so if you want a 60mm stile and 85mm bottom rail, it cant be done. You can sell these points to the custoner and price so that you can make the right money. And if you got retail prices from timber windows dot com, you might be surprised at the prices.

We find our standard ovolo mould and square option cover almost all requirements. Customers dont usually mind too much if the mould is a touch different, they want the overall look from outside to match.

What you could do is organise your windows so you can make almost all from the same set ups, just with slight variations such as stil width etc.

We almost never do any stormproof anymore, we offer flush on stays, flush on butts -both with espags. Also we can do heritage options with either 24mm glazing and cockspur handle or slimlite 12mm through bars with cockspur handle -no espag means sash stiles can be 45mm and match originals exactly.

To get flush windows with espags try the tongue espags from quest hardware, they retract back flush so no mushrooms to clout the frame!

 

[meccarroll]

Let the big boys do it.

I used to make windows, along side my furniture business.

I stopped in 2010 when the building regs changed, the big boys will be able to offer energy performance certificates.

You would be better to by them in and fit them, and just make the odd ball ones when you need to.

This why there are not so many small joinery shops around now as, it is far easier and cheaper to get someone with a CNC set up and dipping and spraying equipment to make them.

I'd agree that since the introduction of the new U value requirements, some people have stopped making windows and it's a great shame. It does not help in this situation though because the building regulations will apply to the odd ball windows too. In this case I suspect all of the windows will need to comply with the regulations standard and none standard. I am working on a Barn conversion at the moment and that has new windows, some standard and some none standard all have been made to comply but the problem is they have been made by two different companies and where they are close together they look really naff because of different profiles.

If you don't need the work to survive but would like to improve production then, factor in the purchase price of the cutters etc and simply put in a price that you would be happy to make the windows for and then let the client decide. You are really in a situation where you can't loose if you play it right.

Mark