indentured wood turners

[hughie]

Due to a comment on another forum to the fact that there is only one indentured woodturner alive in England today. I began to wonder how many are there? Do they belong to this or any other forums? Are there any left if so how many?

As I live in Australia its a bit difficult too gain much info, I owould appreciate any members input.
Cheers

 

[loz]

I still have all my own teeth, do i count ??

 

[gregmcateer]

I still have all my own teeth, do i count ??

Snap - I was going to ask exactly the same thing!
Greg
(PS I THINK it means something to do with Master/Apprentice contract - But am open to correction)

 

[CHJ]

hughie, as discussed elsewhere I doubt that there has been any large company offering sufficient paying employment for a dedicated turner for some decades, and hence the lack of formal 5-7 year indentures.
So much of the bulk turning needs of furniture making and architectural work has been turned out by semi automated tooling for many years and indeed fully CNC these days that I don't think you even need to be a turner to set the machines up.

Are there even any authorised organizations that could police the award of such an accolade? many names appear on Registered Lists just because they are earning a living or supplementing a living with turning, and despite some being at the very brink of their craft they are not as far as I am aware running a business or training facility that could absorb a trainee turner for 5 years and give him the depth of experience or knowledge that an old school indenture would imply.

 

[boysie39]

hughie, as discussed elsewhere I doubt that there has been any large company offering sufficient paying employment for a dedicated turner for some decades, and hence the lack of formal 5-7 year indentures.
So much of the bulk turning needs of furniture making and architectural work has been turned out by semi automated tooling for many years and indeed fully CNC these days that I don't think you even need to be a turner to set the machines up.

Are there even any authorised organizations that could police the award of such an accolade? many names appear on Registered Lists just because they are earning a living or supplementing a living with turning, and despite some being at the very brink of their craft they are not as far as I am aware running a business or training facility that could absorb a trainee turner for 5 years and give him the depth of experience or knowledge that an old school indenture would imply.

I asked that question some weeks ago ,not as well phrased as the way you put it Chas. It's a bit like our politiciens
get enough votes and you can run or help ruin the country without any training.

 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Hughie

I think Chas has pretty much covered it. Coupled with the fact that the old system of aprenticships, becoming journeyman then masters ceased to exist probably 50 years ago or more. I know that Alan Batty claims to have gone through that system and Gary Rance is one of the few woodturners that started out working in a woodturning factory on piece rate work before setting up on his own. I think Ray Jones did similar.

Nowadays most seem to come to it from being keen hobbiests and the only organisation that supports it is the Register of Professional Turners (RPT) which is supported by the Worshipful Company of Turners. I know that the RPT are working toward doing more to support and reinforce professional turners but as Chas says, I think the days of formal appenticships are long gone.

Cheers

Richard

 

[CHJ]

I based my comments on what I saw in industry during my years of engineering/electronic training, I know of two individuals that were doing likewise in a wood related environment, not only were they turning they were studying pattern making, using pattern makers lathes and all the skills needed for that, former construction for various mouldings etc. and I know that they studied wood types and all the timber preparation procedures involved. At times they accompanied us on commercial visits to study production methods and see castings production and commercial production of components.
They were like us after two years basic training expected to produce high quality finished items that could be used directly or for the manufacture of components in a high end research environment.
The remaining three to four years of their training were spent like us under the tutorship of a mentor on a more or less one to one basis as we honed our skills and upped our output to at least match the qualified workforce, in fact the system invariably raised the standard as the various elimination procedures took a toll so that those getting the ultimate accolade would only do so so if they had proven their worth with five years study supported with a record of their practical achievement standards. Those that made the grade then had the opportunity to carry on for sponsored degrees and doctorates.

At times there was co-operation between the trades with such things as metal spinning, and metal spraying of forms where adjustment of the wooden formers had to take place to achieve the desired forms. So the woodies had a broad knowledge as to how their pieces related to other trades.

All this was done on a paid wage, (survival level admittedly*) in a not for profit environment with a view of maintaining the countries skill base.
The practice started to die in the very late 50's and by the mid 60's was reduced to part time study at remote colleges by tutors not connected with the shop floors the students were working on.

* By the last (5th) year of training pay had risen to approximately half that of a qualified worker.

 

[gregmcateer]

Chas and Richard,
Many thanks for updating the post with the information and explanation. Although my reply was flippant, I too am saddened about the lack of such opportunities for up and coming crafts-people!
Greg

 

[hughie]

Here in the antipodes the apprenticeship is still available for young lads leaving school. Although the variety is greatly reduced and there has been a bit of a resurgance of late.

 

[paul-c]

hi Hughie
you say

only one indentured woodturner alive in England today

i have tried to search and this is what i think you refer to

I saw a comment that Allan Batty was the only living indentured wood turner in England today

but what about Ray Jones in liverpool who ,i am sure many of us have seen him demonstrate , served his apprenticeship with e.a.clare's /drakes pride turning lawn bowls some 54 years ago and has been a professional turner ever since , apart from a few years being a milkman.

cheers
paul-c

 

[hughie]

first came across the comment on a USA forum, my immediate reaction was 'nah' So I look around and found it very hard to come up with much info hence the post here.

 

[gnu]

The apprentice system is alive and well in Britain especially in the high tech industries. Airbus UK takes on apps at its factory in Flintshire that produces wings for the Airbus a380.
Not sure how much use the traditional trade apprenticeship would be for would be turners at it is very much an art form these days and you need a lot of business and entrepreneurial flair to succeed as well
If you studied sculpture, product design or did some sort or art or design course at your local art college it would stand you in better stead than going the trade and craft apprenticeship route. From my observations mixing with professionals in all types of craft and art is that the high flyers have gone the art school route and have that natural creative flare. They have maybe studied, jewelry, fashion, pottery or textile design etc.
Also as an insider I can tell that there are many dozens of turners in the UK who have served an old style apprenticeship. They are simply not known or or are not members of the RPT etc. The top turners you simply don't hear about because they are so busy fulfilling orders etc.

 

[frugal]

I know that Robin Wood has complained of being unable to afford to take on an apprentice. If he has to pay even a minimum wage to someone else and take time out to train them then he will not be able to make enough to pay himself ;(

http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.com/2010/01/apprenticeships-in-traditional-crafts.html