How do people buy their wood? PAR vs Rough Sawn

[paulrockliffe]

I've always bought timber cut to size and planed up square from the mill my Dad's always used, didn't give it any thought and just thought that's how wood is sold.

Having read a bit more around here and the rest of the internet, I'm wondering whether it's worth getting a planer thicknesser and just buying 1", 2" boards etc to cut to size and plane up myself. POtentially cheaper, but also a bit more flexible as my current approach doesn't really allow for any stock to be held, just a limited range of decent off-cuts. So to do even the smallest job involves ordering, waiting and a longish drive to collect.

What sort of price difference is there between rough sawn and PAR? And how much would I need to spend on a decent (new or used) PT to be able to get close enough to the stuff I'm getting from the mill at the moment?

Similarly what would I be looking to spend on a band saw if I wanted to be able to split for example a 5" x 1" board into two half inch boards with an acceptable level of wastage?

 

[RobinBHM]

If only it was that easy!

Sadly a half inch board is best machined down from 1" (taking equal amount off each side)

Deeping down a 1" board would result in 2 nicely cupped boards, you may be ok in softwood which I guess is what you talking about, but you may end up with firewood! Softwood

A local timber merchant will probably have different quality timber sawn to planed so you need to ask if they stock sawn sawn boards in fifths or unsorted.

Dont let me put off buying a planer thicknesser though, it will improve your freedom to make components in any section you choose you could also make in hardwoods.

 

[Jacob]

Without a doubt, buying sawn and planing yourself is the normal standard practice for any half serious woodworker.
PAR is for DIY amateurs and bodgers.
But you wouldn't get 2 x 1/2" boards from 1".
2 x 10mm if you are lucky, 2 x 6mm more likely.
By and large the idea is to buy close to size and not re saw. So for 1/2" finished you'd only get one board from 1" sawn, but on the other hand you might get up to 22mm finished from 1" sawn.

 

[deema]

PAR is seldom straight and true, and will often need to be straightened before it becomes usable. You will therefore typically lose some thickness. Rough sawn and planed allows you to select the best size for what ever your making, you don't need to stick to any set size as you can create whatever you need / the best you can get out of the timber.

Rough sawn to planed usually allow 1/4" anything more and the sawing is either fairly terrible, or the wood is moving around too much and is best avoided. I.e. Not evenly grown, poorly seasoned, grain not straight, etc etc.

 

[paulrockliffe]

Thanks, that's all useful. When I talk about PAR, what I mean is the timber mill is squaring the wood up for me to order, none of it has been anything other than perfectly straight and square.

So, what sort of price range am I looking at for a PT that'll be worth me having versus having the wood planed to order?

I've just found a price list for a place I don't use that quotes prices per cubic foot of various boards. They have prices that are, "Sold as seen", "Rough" and "PSE". Any idea what the difference between sold as seen and rough is? On their list a 1" thick piece of european oak is £74 sold as seen, £95 rough and £118 PSE for example. Based on that the PT makes a lot more sense if buying sold as seen rather than rough. I'm doing similar research for the place I do usually use....

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Graham Orm]

What are you planning to make? You're describing softwood, are you aware of this? If it's anything of consequence hard wood would be better. Rough sawn & PAR is for construction work usually.

 

[Graham Orm]

Thanks, that's all useful. When I talk about PAR, what I mean is the timber mill is squaring the wood up for me to order, none of it has been anything other than perfectly straight and square.

So, what sort of price range am I looking at for a PT that'll be worth me having versus having the wood planed to order?

I've just found a price list for a place I don't use that quotes prices per cubic foot of various boards. They have prices that are, "Sold as seen", "Rough" and "PSE". Any idea what the difference between sold as seen and rough is? On their list a 1" thick piece of european oak is £74 sold as seen, £95 rough and £118 PSE for example. Based on that the PT makes a lot more sense if buying sold as seen rather than rough. I'm doing similar research for the place I do usually use....

Thanks again for the help!

£500 upwards for a machine.

If you do get it straight and flat after machining it possibly won't be for long if it's softwood from a builders/timber merchant.

 

[blackrodd]

I often use selected par stock, as it's easier and faster to flat cut from, say, a decent piece of wide, planed, boarding.
So I have 2"x 1", 4"x 1", 7"x 1" and 9"x 1" in the rack, and by the time I need it, Its either still flat, straight and usable, or cut to the next size down, sometimes reduced in thickness, or not.
60% of the par can be rubbish, but the remainder is very good once sorted.
I always watch their incoming stock and dive right in and get sorting.
Buy right, buy once! Rodders

 

[paulrockliffe]

What does PSE stand for? I just assumed it was the same as PAR. PAR is planed all round, is it wrong to assume that means the edges are all at 90 degrees to each other?

It's my terminology that's at fault anyway, what's the description for the hardwood that comes from my supplier planed and squared up and for the boards that they have planed up for me?

So far I've replaced all the woodwork in our house (with oak) and I'm now finishing off cupboards, making shelves to go under the stairs etc. When that's done I've got various bits of furniture to make from small medicine-type cabinets, to cots and whatever else takes my fancy.

 

[Jacob]

What are you planning to make? You're describing softwood, are you aware of this? If it's anything of consequence hard wood would be better. Rough sawn & PAR is for construction work usually.

"Sawn" can apply to any grade of wood from the very best downwards. It all starts as sawn.

Re Rodders "dive right in and get sorting" is not necessarily a good idea as it could mean someone before you has already taken the best stuff. It may be better (and it's more professional) to buy unseen by grade and specification from a yard which doesn't let anybody just dive in

 

[Graham Orm]

What are you planning to make? You're describing softwood, are you aware of this? If it's anything of consequence hard wood would be better. Rough sawn & PAR is for construction work usually.

"Sawn" can apply to any grade of wood from the very best downwards. It all starts as sawn.

Re Rodders "dive right in and get sorting" is not necessarily a good idea as it could mean someone before you has already taken the best stuff. It may be better (and it's more professional) to buy unseen by grade and specification from a yard which doesn't let anybody just dive in

Correct. :mrgreen:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

PSE stands for planed square edge by the way and I've personally never understood what's different about that versus planed all round. The name suggests PSE only has 2 sides planed square but every time I've actually seen it in the flesh - all four sides seem to be planed to me?? (Which is of course what PAR is)

 

[Rhossydd]

One thing to note if you're thinking of buying a PT is you will NEED a chip extractor. The volume of shaving/chips generated by a PT is very big and unless you've got extraction you'll be having to stop work every few minutes to clear the machine out.

For me, I try to buy as much timber as possible rough sawn, then convert it myself. I find it the most reliable and versatile way of getting timber ready to work.

 

[Graham Orm]

One thing to note if you're thinking of buying a PT is you will NEED a chip extractor. The volume of shaving/chips generated by a PT is very big and unless you've got extraction you'll be having to stop work every few minutes to clear the machine out.

For me, I try to buy as much timber as possible rough sawn, then convert it myself. I find it the most reliable and versatile way of getting timber ready to work.

Not sure which machine you're talking about there Rhossydd, sounds like it may have a problem. Mine fires the chips out(and there are plenty!) out the front, I stand a board in front of it and sweep up the pile at the end of the job.

Go to 1min 25 bear in mind this is a full width board https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTNZBKXquc

If you were using it for a couple of hours you'd be better with extraction but for the occasional job a brush and shovel suffice.

 

[blackrodd]

What are you planning to make? You're describing softwood, are you aware of this? If it's anything of consequence hard wood would be better. Rough sawn & PAR is for construction work usually.

"Sawn" can apply to any grade of wood from the very best downwards. It all starts as sawn.

Re Rodders "dive right in and get sorting" is not necessarily a good idea as it could mean someone before you has already taken the best stuff. It may be better (and it's more professional) to buy unseen by grade and specification from a yard which doesn't let anybody just dive in

Customers and clients expect good quality workmanship and materials, and I aim to provide that.
By "dive right in and get sorting" I get the better quality stock needed for my customer or client, and, yes leaving the rubbish behind, if that's all that's left, It's not really my problem.
The problem goes up the chain until they stop sending split, bent and dead knotted stock, they can't sell, at the point of sale.
I would think it more professional to supply the best customers materials than to doff my cap and say, "after you". in the wood yard.
The supplier's will then sell off the rubbish or cut it up smaller. The yard foreman usually keeps an eye on stocks and usually orders in plenty of time, I find.
When the inevitable rubbish is all that's left then I'll go to the other two accounts and get the best for my customer'e there.
HTH Regards Rodders
PS.
PSE stands for planed square edge, and PAR stands for planed all round

 

[Rhossydd]

Not sure which machine you're talking about there Rhossydd, sounds like it may have a problem.

No problem here.
Proper planer thickeners need chip extraction.

 

[Jacob]

My local yard doesn't let anybody select. If you want to collect they used to bring it to you in the yard, but taken from the top of the pile as per grade ordered. They don't even do that any more - now you have to buy minimum of 1 cubic metre which is a big load for a van.
They'll advise on what they have (things like "we've got some 5x1" fifths which is better value etc etc) and if stuff is really worse than the grade they will price it as a lower grade.
Everybody gets the same fair deal and it saves hours of ferkin about in woodyards. Days in fact.

 

[blackrodd]

My local yard doesn't let anybody select. If you want to collect they used to bring it to you in the yard, but taken from the top of the pile as per grade ordered. They don't even do that any more - now you have to buy minimum of 1 cubic metre which is a big load for a van.
They'll advise on what they have (things like "we've got some 5x1" fifths which is better value etc etc) and if stuff is really worse than the grade they will price it as a lower grade.
Everybody gets the same fair deal and it saves hours of ferkin about in woodyards. Days in fact.

Shock, Horror! you do surprise me, down here in sunny Devon you accept or decline anything offered, again and again. It's all graded and priced accordingly.
That's even in the Homegrown wood yard although you are obliged to accept the full width, and any faults, splits knots etc including sapwood, normally on one square edged stock, mind you.
Cheapest english oak is £34.00 cubic ft, has knots and can be a bit hit and miss after planing, face side being good, Then up in price you go at £60.00 + for furniture grade (Luvly stuff)!
And the staff are usually very good, and professional, with the professionals, just as long as you do not ask too many silly ameteur questions!
Regards Rodders

 

[Jacob]

The yard I'm talking about is Scandinavian softwood only so it's graded at source (Swedish mills).
Even with hardwoods it's often easier to say what you want, what it's for, and let them sort it (they should know where everything is!) rather than going through great heaps of the stuff.
And you can do it over the phone.

 

[heimlaga]

I normally buy either rough sawn or logs or standing trees. It all depends on what I am looking for and what my time scedule looks like.

The timber grading used for softwood in Sweden and Finland is a stupidly oversimplified system. High quality slow grown heart pine suitable for window sashes often end up in a fairly low grade as it tends to have some minor knots while rapidly grown sapwood of the softest and least useful kind often ends up in a high grade because it has few knots. Actually a lot of the best heart pine that should become window sashes and door jambs end up as pulpwood.
I think it is more or less impossible to produce a decent product if you cannot pick the kind of wood you need for a particular purpose. The timberyards I nomally buy from do allow me to pick what I want but of cause I have to pay accordingly.