How bowed should oak boards be?

[Pond]

Hi,

I picked up my first oak boards today, 5 no. 160mm x 27mm x 1.5m. These are 'QF1' grade supposedly, sawn not PAR. I paid £55 inc VAT collected for the lot, don't know if that's a good or bad price!?

My question is what would you expect to get out of a 27mm board once machined?

I have planed and thicknessed just one so far, it took a while because of the bow and twist in the baord. I have 'just' got a good flat 18mm board out of the stock, with nothing to spare. Is this expected or should I get more, cos i'm not sure whether it's good timber or not!?

It does look gorgeous once machined, though!!

Thanks
Andy

 

[srp]

I'd expect to get more than 18mm out of it. Expect to lose a maximum of 3mm per face, so you should finish at 21 x 154.
Are the other boards the same? If so I'd take them back. Your price equates to £48 a cubic ft, so it should be good stuff.

 

[Rob Platt]

Last oak I bought I paid £34 per cu. ft. full inch thick PSE minimum finishing required.
All the best
Rob

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

Yes you should get more. Have you cut the boards to length or do they need to be 1.5m? Cutting the boards to a rough length first does reduce the amount to come off to get straight boards.

Price is a tad high assuming its american white?

 

[mailee]

Hmm, sounds similar to what I have just bought. I paid £63 for 1.8cu ft of Oak which is waney edge rough sawn. By the time I had finished machining the boards down from 25mm I ended up with 20mm flat boards. I did have to rip about 1" off one side for sapwood though. HTH.

 

[Pond]

It is, I quote "sustainably cropped from European woodlands", so am presuming it's European!?

I know it is kiln dried. I don't know the difference between American white and European, so could be buying anything!! :roll:

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

American white is lighter then European but not loads.

 

[Pond]

It looks like this too, so presuming it is quarter sawn?

http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/timber/ima ... oakqtr.jpg

 

[coille]

If you have a big batch you might expect the poorest 25% to only make 18mm but most should be flat enough to make 21 to 22 at that relatively narrow width of 160mm and quarter sawn stuff you wouldnt expect to be very cupped but it could still twist if the tree had a twist in it. But those boards should be marked down in price accordingly. As srp says its £48 a cube which is actually £40 plus vat - an ok amount to pay for a small quantity of good quality native or European oak these days - obviously larger quantities and deals and shopping around etc you might get it down into the high 20s if you are lucky. If it is quarter sawn like you think, that would normally be a fair bit more expensive, maybe an extra 20%, which might also be about the margin to knock off for the boards being a bit cupped and twisted, so I dont think you have been overcharged. I have done quite a bit of research on what to pay for oak in the UK in the last few years and the average listed or quoted price for small quantities of oak (under 5 cubic foot) seems to be £35-40 per cubic foot plus vat for furniture grades. In practise all different kinds of grades and qualities are sold with not a lot of difference in price between them - even split-riddled unseasoned knotty oak beams go for £25+ per cube.

By the way do you think the Americans keep their best stuff to themselves? - imported US oak that I have worked with has always been inferior, and I never got it quarter sawn. Then again maybe they dont have such good oak, as I know at least one US sawmill buys a lot of big oak butts from the UK and ships them back to the states in containers still in the round to mill! They seek out big diameter stuff, what they call 'old growth', quarter saw it and use for musical instrument making - so the best rays are presumably to be found in big old slow grown trees.

pat

 

[Chataigner]

I would consider 27mm down to 18mm unacceptable. There is always the odd poor one, but 2-3mm off each side when planing/thicknessing should be enough.

I buy local grown rough sawn oak live edge here in France and pay around 1000€/m3. I can often get air dried at that price too. Pricing is based on the useful width of the board, so while there is waste, you dont pay for it.

 

[Scouse]

I don't use much oak, but I do use ash which is frequently all over the place in terms of cup etc. Even so I would be unhappy if I was losing more than 3mm from each side.

It is good advice from Hudson above to cut boards to an approximate length to reduce the amount you need to shave off.

 

[Jacob]

...
It is good advice from Hudson above to cut boards to an approximate length to reduce the amount you need to shave off.

Not just "good advice" - is normal practice and generally regarded as absolutely essential, unless you really want full length, thin and bendy boards for skirtings or similar.
Thicknessed at full length you should get 18mm ish but may be less. Thicknessed at say 600mm you should get 20 ish or more, you might even get 24mm from your 27 i.e. don't thickness anything until it is cut to length and width from your cut list.

 

[Hudson Carpentry]

I have just checked with my supplier (well the 2010 price sheet I have on my desk) and for 5 x 1.5m of 27x160mm European Oak I would be paying £6.10 a meter exclu VAT (£1465/M3) which after the 20% vat that lot would cost me £54.50.

For American White Oak the same amount would cost me £37.26 Inc VAT (£4.13/m exc VAT and £995/M3). Maybe next time you need oak you should consider AW oak.

 

[Pond]

Thanks for the advice chaps! :wink:

I think I may be guilty of rushing in with my eyes closed. As I haven't actually got anything to size to yet, I just wanted to plane down a board to see how good it looks!!

I have been speaking to British Hardwoods and George Sykes' today, both very similar prices. I think i will order a sample of 'character European Oak' from one, before I measure up and order everything I need (guestimating 20ft3 so far!). I must say Sykes' were V V helpful and happy to chat and advise on the phone. Excellent delivery charges too!

Andy

 

[Anonymous]

If the piece is really cupped i will cut to length first then do my machining, but other wise i run all my boards through in the lengths they come.

I use Sykes a small amount for my timber, but you do pay a premium for their stock, however on certain jobs i wouldn't use anyone else as the quality is second to none.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks for the advice chaps! :wink:

I think I may be guilty of rushing in with my eyes closed. As I haven't actually got anything to size to yet, I just wanted to plane down a board to see how good it looks!!

I have been speaking to British Hardwoods and George Sykes' today, both very similar prices. I think i will order a sample of 'character European Oak' from one, before I measure up and order everything I need (guestimating 20ft3 so far!). I must say Sykes' were V V helpful and happy to chat and advise on the phone. Excellent delivery charges too!

Andy

Just be wary of 'character'. What one supplier's 'character' s which has good figuring is another's full of splits and knotty holes.

 

[coille]

Andy[/quote]

Just be wary of 'character'. What one supplier's 'character' s which has good figuring is another's full of splits and knotty holes.[/quote]

I agree, I when I describe home grown timber as 'character grade' it is rustic, with knots, splits, holes, suitable for waney edge mantel pieces and shelves etc or to be cut up for furniture making timber but with a very heavy extent of wastage. If its not character grade it may be described as prime or clear or figured / burry / pippy / quarter sawn etc, all of which are attributes which generally classify upwards whereas 'character', whilst appealing to many, is a grade or two down in value.