Honing lessons from Westonbirt

[jimi43]

There is a fundamental problem here...in that the physics/chemistry(?)/engineering of sharpening cannot in and by itself be seen as a topic of interest.

It is true that wood workers might (justifiably(?)) say "if it is sharp enough for the job...the job is done".

BUT....some of us find the whole aspect of "sharpening" interesting and like to dabble with the various techniques purely out of in(s)ane :wink: curiosity.

Therefore...various techniques from oil to waterstones, papers and films, Tormeks and Worksharps....are all valid in our minds and should be tested to see how they perform.

The end product is the sharpest edge "because it is" not because of what it can do. I believe this is a valid topic for discussion in its own right.

Well that's my view for what it's worth and I'm sticking to it!

Jim

 

[Paul Chapman]

The end product is the sharpest edge "because it is" not because of what it can do.

Well, for me it's about what it can do - which is why I started this thread.

I was about to experiment with back bevels for those occasions when I was getting tear-out and I wanted to use an ordinary plane rather than a scraper plane.

However, having spoken to Garrett Hack, seen how he sharpens his blades, listened to his presentation and seen the results he is able to get, I realised that the first thing I needed to do was to get sharper edges on my blades. A further issue was that I had been concerned for some time that my use of a leather strop might have been causing some rounding of the edges.

I have no problem with those who want to try out different techniques for their own sake but, as I say, I started this thread to deal with a specific issue from a user point of view.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

You two billy goats gruff there; step away from the bridge. No trip-trapping. [-X

Is it only me who sees a fundamental problem with "Green Rouge" as a term?

"rouge" is iron(iii) oxide, not "strop material" or "polishing compound". Hence. you cannot have green rouge, since rouge is (as one might expect) red.

The green stuff is chromium oxide, for those taking notes.

BugBear

BB

I think you missed the point. "Rouge" means "red" in French, hence "green rouge" is impossible.

Nevertheless, "rouge" has come to refer to polishing compounds in more modern times, which these are regardless of chemical formulation. Thus one can speak (write) of the green (and many other colours) compound as a rouge. LV do not call refer to theirs as such, however, prefering "honing compound".

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

You two billy goats gruff there; step away from the bridge. No trip-trapping. [-X

Is it only me who sees a fundamental problem with "Green Rouge" as a term?

"rouge" is iron(iii) oxide, not "strop material" or "polishing compound". Hence. you cannot have green rouge, since rouge is (as one might expect) red.

The green stuff is chromium oxide, for those taking notes.

BugBear

BB

I think you missed the point. "Rouge" means "red" in French, hence "green rouge" is impossible.

Nevertheless, "rouge" has come to refer to polishing compounds in more modern times, which these are regardless of chemical formulation. Thus one can speak (write) of the green (and many other colours) compound as a rouge. LV do not call refer to theirs as such, however, prefering "honing compound".

Regards from Perth

Derek

Au contraire - I got the point, and mentioned it (perhaps too subtly) in passing:

I said: since rouge is (as one might expect) red

I'm also not sure I agree with your assertion that rouge has become a umbrella term for polishing compound.

BugBear

 

[GazPal]

Au contraire - I got the point, and mentioned it (perhaps too subtly) in passing:

I said: since rouge is (as one might expect) red

I'm also not sure I agree with your assertion that rouge has become a umbrella term for polishing compound.

BugBear

I couldn't agree more and also go the point the first time round.

Jeweller's rouge is where the term originated and while other polishing/cutting/honing compounds tend to be called rouge, they're not as they lack iron oxide in their makeup and colouration. Rouge has become yet another bastardised term among many over the years. I suppose a little like misnaming Cabinet pattern as London pattern in the world of screwdrivers, or Philadelphia pattern against London pattern in the world of bricklaying trowels. :?

 

[jimi43]

I have no problem with those who want to try out different techniques for their own sake but, as I say, I started this thread to deal with a specific issue from a user point of view.

Well thank you Paul! 8) :wink:

Now...to try out yet another method of getting an edge and thanks for annotating it so clearly from the lecture.

So...back on topic...this Solvol Autosol...is it the paste or liquid in a tin that you are using with oil or doesn't it matter.

I ask because I happen to have both...

Jim

 

[Paul Chapman]

this Solvol Autosol...is it the paste or liquid in a tin that you are using with oil or doesn't it matter.

Hi Jim,

I've only ever bought it in a tube, which is the paste. Didn't know that they did it in a liquid form. I think using it in a paste form would be best.

Initially, I use it on it's own. But then when it dries out on the wood, you can sort of reactivate it with oil. The oil also helps to stop it building up too much on the wood. If your piece of wood is nice and flat, you only need a very small amount of Autosol for it to do the job.

If you look at that video clip of Garrett Hack sharpening a chisel, you'll see that in the final stage where he uses the diamond paste on a piece of wood, he just puts a few drops of oil on the strop. I'm doing it the same way.

This is yet another plus point about the method. It's fast; the wood costs nothing; and the amount of Solvol Autosol or diamond paste that you need to use is negligible

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[MIGNAL]

Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.

Thanks for that, MIGNAL. I used to use jewellers rouge with my leather strop. One of the things I was planning to do was to try that out on the wooden block and see how it compares.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Jacob]

I'm quite in to Solvol Autosol (export grade) with rouge, a pickled onion and a shot of Jameson's (shaken not stirred).

 

[MIGNAL]

Tried the Autosol, the 'green rouge', the leather strop, the hardwood block. Much prefer the hardwood block with the 'green rouge'.

Thanks for that, MIGNAL. I used to use jewellers rouge with my leather strop. One of the things I was planning to do was to try that out on the wooden block and see how it compares.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I think you will find an improvement or at least more consistent results. It's all too easy to round over an edge when using leather, even if you use light pressure. I started with using a hardwood block, tried a leather strop and have now moved back to using the hardwood block.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Just a quick update.

I've been sharpening up a few of my blades using the wooden strop with Solvol Autosol and 3-in-1 oil. Here it is

I've been honing on the green extra-fine DMT stone then straight to the strop.

As a test piece I've been using this piece of oak.

Up until now, this section of the wood has suffered bad tear-out which I've only been able to plane out with a scraper plane

However, with my new honing method using the wooden rather than leather strop, I've been able to plane the piece without any tear-out and leaving a very smooth, polished finish

I've used a variety of planes, Clifton #4, #6 and #7 and Record #4 and #5 with Clifton blades and cap irons (which are all bevel-down planes) and a Lie Nielsen #9 and a Veritas low-angle block plane (which are bevel-up). With all those planes, I was able to achieve equally good results.

My conclusion is that when using a leather strop, I was getting beautifully polished blades but the compressibility of the leather was causing a rounding over of the edges. With the wooden strop I'm getting much sharper edges because there is no rounding over.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Modernist]

Interesting thread. I think there clearly is a danger of rounding with leather and especially when used directly on the Tormek, which I avoid.

On your subject of focussing on the outcome, I have been achieving much better results since changing to high angle bevel up as opposed to a scraper plane. IMO this favours the more wear resistant A2 blades so the issue for me is how to get the best 45 deg edge on A2. Adding an 8000 grit Cerax stone recently has certainly moved things forwards when used after the 6000 King I already had and it seems logical to move to paste on wood or glass for the final stage. Clearly wood will hold more paste and glass will be flatter and harder.

Whilst Solvol may be the best final polishing compound as it breaks down as stated it is slow and a diamond paste is more consistent in it's action. Although I do not use it now at one stage in my varied career I spent time boring and honing engine cylinders with hard steel cutters and had a range of diamond honing pastes used against a rotating ground steel plate like a lap and a guide like a tormek gouge jig to follow the profile of the tool.

Clearly then in engineering circles the harder lapping plate is the norm. (No pun intended ) and I expect oil based diamond pastes should be available from the Cromwells of the world.

 

[Paul Chapman]

the issue for me is how to get the best 45 deg edge on A2. Adding an 8000 grit Cerax stone recently has certainly moved things forwards when used after the 6000 King I already had and it seems logical to move to paste on wood or glass for the final stage.

I'd be interested to hear, in due course, how you get on, Brian.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Interesting thread Paul.

I've used Autosol succesfully on a scrap of MDF. Excellent results but I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF. Perhaps a bit of solid wood would "hold" it better?

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've used Autosol succesfully on a scrap of MDF. Excellent results but I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF. Perhaps a bit of solid wood would "hold" it better?

Hi Karl. Various bits and pieces that I've read suggest that MDF is not the best substrate for honing. Apparently it can cause scratching which somewhat defeats the object. Those that have used it and then tried solid wood tend not to go back to MDF.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

As I said much earlier, I get similar results with the very fine 3M lapping papers on 10mm thick plate glass.
As always, horses for courses...as long as each individual gets there in the end.

Paul - it would be interesting now to try that edge on the WfH which is a test of any blade...I can plane it (just) at 50deg effective pitch on my LV BU smoother - Rob

 

[jimi43]

Yes indeed...very interesting results and huge thanks for the test pictures.

Rob...I agree...having bought the 3M films from Matt I have amazing results and would recommend this method over the waterstones.

I am interested to see how the Autosol works though...will try soon and compare.

Cheers guys...very interesting indeed!

Jim

 

[Paul Chapman]

As I said much earlier, I get similar results with the very fine 3M lapping papers on 10mm thick plate glass.
As always, horses for courses...as long as each individual gets there in the end.

You're absolutely correct, Rob. There are several ways of getting to super-sharp. Paste and a block of wood is just one of the several methods.

What I'm particularly interested in at the moment are the various ways of dealing with tear-out. It seems to me there are three:

1. A super-sharp blade at "normal" honing angles

2. A steeper effective pitch by honing a steeper angle on a bevel-up plane or a back bevel on a bevel-down plane

3. A scraper plane

For the most difficult grain, a scraper plane will almost always work in my experience. But there are times when one would rather use a normal plane. For that reason, I think it is worth exploring what is possible.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

...I found the Autosol was too easily moved around the MDF.

If that's an issue, I would suggest that you're using too much paste.

BugBear