Helping out a family member

[Sam Kilby]

Well I’ve read all of the replies and tbh agree in principle with all . I’ve sent family members a mini contract with my t/c,s the work will be guaranteed for 12 months only ( against my workmanship) not the actual materials. There is no guarantee for the turf or the the sleepers. I’m sticking to my original estimate of 20 days but I’m reserving the right to extend this for circumstances that are beyond my control , bad weather , non availability of materials, waiting for the skip to be exchanged. or anything that prevents me from working once I arrive on site . I’ve insisted the concrete will be ready mix for consistency and it will be pumped so it can be poured directly into the pre prepared formers and tamped to the correct level. They will pay for all materials and any hire equipment in advance as reqd . They will pay 1/2 the labour up front and 1/4 after 10 days and the final 1/4 on completion. I’ve written it out and my mates Mrs has printed it out all official like and It will be signed and witnessed . In short I’ve made it sound like it will probably cost a lot more than my original quote as I’ve slightly increased the labour cost per day due to a clerical error. I also reserve the right to cancel this agreement if if they as a family or any individual member of the family place any unreasonable demands on how the work is done . . . Also I’ve advised they should get additional quotes and go with what’s best for them . I have suggested check a trade , my builder . Com and facebook marketplace. My aim is to make my quote as unacceptable and unattractive as possible but should they accept it we won’t lose out financially. It’s a bit like when I’ve given a price for say £150 and the customer says can you do it for £125 I then reply no but I can do it for £175 - thanks for all your advice and help. If they have any sense between them it’s them who will be doing the running. I mean would you accept a contract like this

I think this is the best you can do. Caveat yourself out the buttocks, so they understand any discovered pitfalls aren’t your problem to resolve. Discuss and try to explain calmly the work involved in the job required, and that your methods to resolve those problems are based on hard won experience. Don’t let yourself be forced into adopting methods you don’t want to, for example the concrete mixing - “I won’t mix this much concrete by hand because you can’t mix enough in time for a proper set, or it will actually end up costing you more because the job will take longer on labour etc”
Ask them to obtain quotes from other local suppliers, but make sure they are stringent in getting quotes for the same things and level of service. I would imagine 90% of local pros wouldn’t want the customer buying the materials for starters, as it cuts into their profit and could potentially slow the job down with slow ordering or mistakes etc..
you are spot on with the deposit scheme too.

 

[Bingy man]

I think this is the best you can do. Caveat yourself out the buttocks, so they understand any discovered pitfalls aren’t your problem to resolve. Discuss and try to explain calmly the work involved in the job required, and that your methods to resolve those problems are based on hard won experience. Don’t let yourself be forced into adopting methods you don’t want to, for example the concrete mixing - “I won’t mix this much concrete by hand because you can’t mix enough in time for a proper set, or it will actually end up costing you more because the job will take longer on labour etc”
Ask them to obtain quotes from other local suppliers, but make sure they are stringent in getting quotes for the same things and level of service. I would imagine 90% of local pros wouldn’t want the customer buying the materials for starters, as it cuts into their profit and could potentially slow the job down with slow ordering or mistakes etc..
you are spot on with the deposit scheme too.

Thanks for that - yes this was one of my points to them that most heavy landscape firms have their own suppliers and of course get a decent discount, then they add 15/20% to that cost which is passed on to the customer. I’m getting them the materials at a discount but passing that directly to them . As for the concrete- again it’s been explained that the mix although it’s not structural it needs to be consistent and laid in a timely manner. The concrete quotes were horrific at the top end of £350 for the concrete and £125 - £160 per hr for the pump but ghe minimum hire period was 8 hrs . So to get this down to £520—£580 is a good saving -and again passed directly to them . And that’s my main point that I’m only making a small profit on the labour and as such I can’t afford for the job to overrun which will dilute my profit down . Or worse I could end up with nothing. This is why I usually avoid big jobs cos as we all know several small jobs will bring in more money for less hours and usually don’t involve back breaking hard labour . I’ll be surprised if they accept this revised quote but if they do they will have no wiggle room and assuming we get halfway-10 days we get half the labour then it’s just a few days untill the 1/4 payment - at this point if we had to walk away we’re in profit. If we go the full distance assuming we complete it in 20 days and there is an issue with payment we could potentially loose out but I don’t think they would risk that - I’m sure you’ve seen the vids on u t when customers don’t pay for work done ..

 

[Terry - Somerset]

A purely personal take on the debate - I appreciate that we may handle relationships with family and friends differently.

A "mates rates" job is one for which there should be a shared amicable understanding. Documenting the arrangements - prices, specification, payment terms, who pays for materials etc etc - is simply to avoid possible misunderstanding or recollections as the job progresses.

You seem to have created an agreement which anticipates that problem(s) WILL arise and deal with them in a contractual manner - as you would do with a normal business transaction.

If they default in some way, would you actually take legal action to recover your costs, stop work leaving the job part complete, or simply (very reluctantly) finish the job at your expense. IMHO - turn down the work - justification - other work pressures, too large a job, health (heavy work) etc.

Alternative - they should get comparable estimates from other companies. The "mates rates" issue could be covered by you offering a (say) 25% reduction on labour or other costs. I suspect that this would be somewhat sobering for them compared to what I suspect you have quoted.

 

[Adam W.]

I've installed staircases and refurbished a chimney for my sister, no payment was expected, but I busted my nuts for no return and it took time away from paid contracts.

I also built an extension for my elderly parents. My brother offered to pay for all materials as his part of the bargain and his son offered to do the bathroom and the plumbing. They managed to talk themselves out of the job when it came time for them to perform and the payment turned into a loan.

I ended up being caught in a mahoosive battle and did all the work myself FOC and paid out of my pocket for the bathroom.

I made an eyebrow dormer for a friend in exchange for electrical work. Dormer successfully completed and installed, friend happy.......surprise, surprise no electrical work carried out....Jerk!

Never again will I work for family and friends. It's a flat NO.

 

[Stigmorgan]

 

[HOJ]

@Bingy man Even though you have written your T & C's you are still hanging in the wind, please just take the advice, and say NO, which seems to be a common opinion in this thread.

Never again will I work for family and friends. It's a flat NO.

I think the same about customers, I think I've got the measure of them now, bit late in the day though, heading towards packing it all in, really had enough.

 

[Bingy man]

I've installed staircases and refurbished a chimney for my sister, no payment was expected, but I busted my nuts for no return and it took time away from paid contracts.

I also built an extension for my elderly parents. My brother offered to pay for all materials as his part of the bargain and his son offered to do the bathroom and the plumbing. They managed to talk themselves out of the job when it came time for them to perform and the payment turned into a loan.

I ended up being caught in a mahoosive battle and did all the work myself FOC and paid out of my pocket for the bathroom.

I made an eyebrow dormer for a friend in exchange for electrical work. Dormer successfully completed and installed, friend happy.......surprise, surprise no electrical work carried out....Jerk!

Never again will I work for family and friends. It's a flat NO.

Being caught out

I've installed staircases and refurbished a chimney for my sister, no payment was expected, but I busted my nuts for no return and it took time away from paid contracts.

I also built an extension for my elderly parents. My brother offered to pay for all materials as his part of the bargain and his son offered to do the bathroom and the plumbing. They managed to talk themselves out of the job when it came time for them to perform and the payment turned into a loan.

I ended up being caught in a mahoosive battle and did all the work myself FOC and paid out of my pocket for the bathroom.

I made an eyebrow dormer for a friend in exchange for electrical work. Dormer successfully completed and installed, friend happy.......surprise, surprise no electrical work carried out....Jerk!

Never again will I work for family and friends. It's a flat NO.

im not surprised, for a family member to agree to do part of the work as their contribution then to do a u turn is imo a punch below the belt . I’ve always sorted close family and friends for mates rates or foc and as long as it’s appreciated and the family member or friend is genuine and grateful I really don’t mind especially if I have the time , In my current case they are not close family but very distant, they have had nothing to do with our side of the family for years but they got my number from someone else who was at the funeral. I’ve not heard back from them yet and I’m not sure that I will .

 

[Adam W.]

@Bingy man Even though you have written your T & C's you are still hanging in the wind, please just take the advice, and say NO, which seems to be a common opinion in this thread.


I think the same about customers, I think I've got the measure of them now, bit late in the day though, heading towards packing it all in, really had enough.

I packed it in and went to do labour only sub-contracting for larger firms with a day rate and no responsibilities.

 

[Bingy man]

I’ve pretty much told myself that I’m not doing it and I’ve discussed it with my friend today and we both agree that it’s not going to work out well if it all goes sour - which it probably will . I have a bathroom makeover waiting for me to start and this is lighter work and a really nice elderly couple who I’ve done many jobs for previously edit so I’m going to do this job instead . As for the landscaping job I’ll leave it with them but as they are the ( I’d like it done yesterday type ) then they would have been on the phone by now asking for a start date - they haven’t. But I’ll update the thread if they do . Thanks to all those who have contributed to this thread and offered their opinions and advice which is valued and appreciated

 

[Jameshow]

Being caught out

im not surprised, for a family member to agree to do part of the work as their contribution then to do a u turn is imo a punch below the belt . I’ve always sorted close family and friends for mates rates or foc and as long as it’s appreciated and the family member or friend is genuine and grateful I really don’t mind especially if I have the time , In my current case they are not close family but very distant, they have had nothing to do with our side of the family for years but they got my number from someone else who was at the funeral. I’ve not heard back from them yet and I’m not sure that I will .

Glad your sorted get yourself a new mobile phone number tomorrow!

 

[Bingy man]

Glad your sorted get yourself a new mobile phone number tomorrow!

It’s easier to block them tbh as many of my loyal customers have my number. I also don’t answer unknown numbers on the premise that it’s probably a scam call ..but I get what you mean ..

 

[Bingy man]

Update - i heard nothing since sending my t/ c,s a few days back . This morning I got a text message saying in short- i was being greedy and trying to make the job sound more than it was . That I was deliberately making it more complicated than it was. They droned on and on but clearly they have no or idea what’s involved with the job they want doing because in their opinion the 20mm porcelain slabs can be laid on a dry bed of sharp sand and cement they describe the 100mm of hardcore and 50 mm of concrete as -only required for commercial use. It went on and on . It ended with them almost dictating what is and what isn’t reqd . They insist the work would not take more than 7 days but would pay for 10 Doesn’t sound like they have had any quotes from any reputable and professional companies so far . So after falling about in fits of laughter for a few minutes with no intention of taking this job on after the advice I received from this thread I sent them a reply words to the effect of fox trot Oscar. I added the last time a customer dictated what I needed to do and what I didn’t. And to add insult to injury how long it would take I was 17 and had little experience with customers let alone a complicated job . As for suggesting I need the work and should be grateful for the opportunity to do this job ( for the family i hardly know) was probably the proverbial straw. So I think you were all right with your advice and my initial apprehension about these people was also spot on . I’ve dodged a bullet that’s for sure and a big thanks to those who took the time to reply offer their advice and opinions..pity I was actually looking forward to the actual job but not the people who wanted it doing as I think they were taking me for a fool but they underestimated that as well..thanks again to all who contributed..

 

[Blackswanwood]

You can choose your friends but you cannot choose your family …

 

[Inspector]

Dodge a hail of bullets with that bunch. The unfortunate thing is they will become a nightmare for someone else.

Pete

 

[Daniel2]

A small amount of awkwardness and discomfort right now, but avoiding
an absolute shed load later.
Your life will thank you for it.

 

[Bingy man]

My back is already saying thank you for not torturing me with that job , my mental health is saying you have enough to deal with without adding these distant family members and their demands , my conscience is clear . Yes unfortunately some other company or small firm will have to deal with them but most professionals will pick up on their arrogance straight away. They are the type of low intelligence people who think if you have 5 men working for a day they would only have to pay for 1 . Well not my problem anymore but hope they get some truly horrific quotes . They will wish they had been more co operative especially now I’ve blocked their numbers.. thanks again..

 

[RobinBHM]

Update - i heard nothing since sending my t/ c,s a few days back . This morning I got a text message saying in short- i was being greedy and trying to make the job sound more than it was . That I was deliberately making it more complicated than it was. They droned on and on but clearly they have no or idea what’s involved with the job they want doing because in their opinion the 20mm porcelain slabs can be laid on a dry bed of sharp sand and cement they describe the 100mm of hardcore and 50 mm of concrete as -only required for commercial use. It went on and on . It ended with them almost dictating what is and what isn’t reqd . They insist the work would not take more than 7 days but would pay for 10 Doesn’t sound like they have had any quotes from any reputable and professional companies so far . So after falling about in fits of laughter for a few minutes with no intention of taking this job on after the advice I received from this thread I sent them a reply words to the effect of fox trot Oscar. I added the last time a customer dictated what I needed to do and what I didn’t. And to add insult to injury how long it would take I was 17 and had little experience with customers let alone a complicated job . As for suggesting I need the work and should be grateful for the opportunity to do this job ( for the family i hardly know) was probably the proverbial straw. So I think you were all right with your advice and my initial apprehension about these people was also spot on . I’ve dodged a bullet that’s for sure and a big thanks to those who took the time to reply offer their advice and opinions..pity I was actually looking forward to the actual job but not the people who wanted it doing as I think they were taking me for a fool but they underestimated that as well..thanks again to all who contributed..

You should’ve sent them a nice reply saying: “I’ve heard there are some fantastic tradesmen on rated people / mybuilder / checkatrade who do a fantastic job at ever so reasonable prices”…….and let them find a cowboy who will ruin their garden.

 

[RobinBHM]

I got a text message saying in short- i was being greedy and trying to make the job sound more than it was

It was a £10k or more job all day long, only cowboys will be doing it for the price they want to pay.

I bet they will get a far smaller job done then claim they got it cheaper

 

[Jameshow]

Using expensive materials with cheap labour is asking for trouble. Using cheaper materials which are more forgiving, with cheap labour makes more sense.

 

[Adam W.]

I suspect that this is not the last we have heard on this.