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Help choosing a Tenon Saw please.

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scubadoo

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At the risk of it ending up like the recent thread on dovetail saws :D can you guys recommend me a Tenon saw.

I'm building a bed at the moment, so 6mm tenons in 20mm wide pine is the requirement. I also make guitars and want to get into some furniture work.

I want something that is new, and comes sharp.

I don't want to go mad on price but also don't want to buy cheap and regret it.

Cheers

Dave
 

Argus

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Ebay specials are sometimes a lottery when it comes to quality – all too often a good old saw is a tempting buy but beyond repair in the sharpening department.

For new saws, you could do worse than look at the range of VERITAS saws. At around 50 quid they are very good.




.
 

Jacob

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Loads on ebay very cheap and some excellent value for money. OK it's a gamble but you just have to jump in IMHO. It's just part of the learning curve. You could buy 10 or more ebay saws for the price of one Pax. Several of them would be excellent.
One to avoid new is the Atkinson Walker with the horrid handles. It shouldn't matter but they are just so nasty! Purple plank with holes in. :roll:
On the other hand beware of picturesque curly handles - you could be paying more for the handle than the blade.


Go for it - jump in now!

Look out for Spear & Jackson or Footprint. Very good saws, with modern handles, which puts off the collectors and makes them good value.
 

Doug B

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Argus":2qbex1bf said:
.

For new saws, you could do worse than look at the range of VERITAS saws. At around 50 quid they are very good.




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That would be my choice if I was going for a new one.
 

Aled Dafis

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Doug B":2qjm40r2 said:
Argus":2qjm40r2 said:
.

For new saws, you could do worse than look at the range of VERITAS saws. At around 50 quid they are very good.




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That would be my choice if I was going for a new one.
+1, excellent saws and fantastic value for money compared to Pax, LN, Cosman etc.
 

pedder

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scubadoo":30767lmv said:
A so 6mm tenons in 20mm wide pine is the requirement.
Any dovetail saw will fit perfectly.

If you can sharpen, buying old is cheapest.
If not, veritas is a good cheap saw.

Cheers
Pedder
 

Cheshirechappie

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Dave - thanks for asking this question! I'm in a similar boat with regard to tenon saws.

For about the last 15 years, I've had a 12" Roberts and Lee Dorchester with 13 1/2 ppi crosscut, which has done all the tenon-sawing I've needed so far, alongside it's 'proper' cross-cutting duties. When doing rip cuts, it gets there, but slowly. So I'd like to add a rip-filed tenon saw to the toolkit, but as a 'nice-to-have' rather than an out-and-out essential.

Some rootling around the American sites indicates that they have several bespoke sawmakers offering just about anything you can think of. They seem to have a fashion for very long, deep tenon saws with quite coarse toothlines at the moment - 18" 9ppi seems to be in vogue. Prices up to $350 - which seems a bit over the top. They are also very fussy about 'curly handles', which seems a bit buttocks-backwards. As woodworkers, we can shape handles to our wishes, or even replace them altogether if we see fit, but we can't do so much about the metal bits, so need to get the right thing first go from the manufacturer.

Slightly more down to earth, I get the general feeling that 14" or 16" 10ppi rip cut for softwood work, and 12" or 14" 13ppi rip cut for furniture work in hardwoods seem to be the 'preferred' configurations (with the obvious proviso that if it's got sharp teeth it'll cut, whatever you ask it to do). The larger saw for softwoods reflecting the generally larger sizes of softwood components relative to furniture work in hardwoods. The new Pax saws do look tempting.

On the other hand, a bog-standard B&Q hardpoint will do the job, probably almost as well - even if it does look horrible.

My thoughts are therefore that if you're likely to be doing quite a lot of 'proper' furniture work, the posh saw would be a fair buy. For occasinal use, not really financially justifiable. Just get a hardpoint.
 

woodbloke

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Aled Dafis":32yx98vw said:
Doug B":32yx98vw said:
Argus":32yx98vw said:
.

For new saws, you could do worse than look at the range of VERITAS saws. At around 50 quid they are very good.




.
That would be my choice if I was going for a new one.
+1, excellent saws and fantastic value for money compared to Pax, LN, Cosman etc.
+2, difficult to fault - Rob
 

Argus

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Cheshirechappie":znsvalfg said:
Dave - thanks for asking this question! I'm in a similar boat with regard to tenon saws.

For about the last 15 years, I've had a 12" Roberts and Lee Dorchester with 13 1/2 ppi crosscut, which has done all the tenon-sawing I've needed so far, alongside it's 'proper' cross-cutting duties. When doing rip cuts, it gets there, but slowly. So I'd like to add a rip-filed tenon saw to the toolkit, but as a 'nice-to-have' rather than an out-and-out essential.

I have a 20 point Dorchester Crosscut and was lucky enough to get a Roberts and Lee 20 point Britania rip last year on fleabay that was just about unused.
Flinns (who now make them as well as the more expensive Pax) is a great saw maker, but the handles on all but the Pax are awful, so I chucked them on the fire and make a new pistol grip ones to suit me. in short, all of Flinns saws are excellent in the blade department, even if the handles let some of them down and the firm is second to none for good service.

Whilst hard-points are fine for site work, speaking for myself I'm in it for the enjoyment and that goes for the tools as well.

Back to the VERITAS saws, they do make a range of points and cuts, including rips, to choose from. I think that the blades are made in Japan and are fully sparpenable.

.

.
 

scubadoo

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Thanks everyone.

As I said, I want a new saw. I need it quickly, don't know a saw doctor in Bristol and don't know enough about old saws to know what's good. I haven't found a Veritas Tenon saw so i guess you're talking about the carcass saws - is this the one you mean?

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/sa ... aw,-14-tpi

Is that big enough for most things, i just wonder if 60mm cut depth is enough?
 

Jacob

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A bit too small.
The standard general purpose tenon saw is about 12". Veritas is nearer with the cross cut version of these.
Don't be caught out by the multiple choices - it's just a trick to get you to buy more saws! I'm surprised they don't come in sets of 4 to 12. :roll:
 

Argus

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scubadoo":1eer4ew8 said:
As I said, I want a new saw. I need it quickly,

Rutland charge for delivery.

Axminster carry the full range of VERITAS saws. If you need it quickly their bog standard free delivery normally arrives the next day.

If you search 'Veritas saws' you should get the full line up to choose from.



.
 

scubadoo

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What would you recommend in a slightly bigger saw for around the same price?

I had a Pax 'guitar' saw for fretwork which is nice but the tenon's are a little pricey I think.
 

Cheshirechappie

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If we set aside Ebay and hardpoints, my researches to date suggest that the choice is as follows;

Veritas, as already recommended. 12" blade, 2 1/2" depth, 12tpi rip or 14tpi crosscut. About £55 - £60 a pop.

Atkinson Walker kit as supplied by Matthew (Workshop Heaven). 12" blade, about 3 1/2" depth (as far as I can tell from photos), either 13tpi rip or 15tpi crosscut. Make your own handle to taste. £55 a pop.

Flinn Garlick Saws Pax 1776 - several configurations, 8", 10" and 12" in either 15tpi or 13tpi crosscut or rip. Blade depth 2" for 8" and 10", 2 1/2" for the 12" saw. Prices between about £80 for the little 'uns to about £110 for the 12".

Pax 1776 'special' supplied by Matthew - 14" blade, 3 1/2" (?) deep 13tpi rip or 15 tpi crosscut, £130.

Flinn Garlick saws 'special' Pax 1776 18" 9tpi - huge thing best suited to framing work - £150.

Lie-Nielsen 12" x 3" or 14" x 3 5/8" 10 tpi rip, or 12tpi crosscut. About £140 - £150. (APTC)

Lie-Nielsen 16" x 10tpi about 4" deep, £152.

Several 'old' Pax, Lynx, Roberts and Lee etc. saws from Flinn Garlick. The blades will be fine, but many people will want to reshape the handles. Mostly in the 12" crosscut range, about £40 - £60.

Anybody know of any others?

Edit to add - Flinn Garlick Saws now offer Roberts and Lee Dorchester, choice of sizes, 14" x 13tpi rip, 3" blade depth, walnut handle - £95. They also offer the Lynx range, eg. (14" 13tpi rip, 3" blade depth, £90), and another 'budget' option, not available in rip filing, for under £50.

A good perusal of the Flinn Garlick website would be time well spent - they offer plenty saws and plenty other than saws.
 

scubadoo

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Thanks Chesirechappie, that's really helpful.

Am I right in thinking that it's really a rip cut that I want?
 

bugbear

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scubadoo":3fwivwmu said:
Thanks Chesirechappie, that's really helpful.

Am I right in thinking that it's really a rip cut that I want?
If you want to make both cross cuts (esp. shoulder cuts) and rip cuts, a cross cut will do both, with the rip cuts merely being slower than with a purpose filed rip saw.

If you only want rip cuts (esp. tenon cheeks), a purpose filed rip saw is a joy, but rip filed teeth are not good at cross cuts.

BugBear
 

Cheshirechappie

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I'd agree with Bugbear.

For about 15 years, I've been using a 12" 13ppi crosscut (R&L Dorchester - very happy with it) for everything backsawish (apart from dovetails). It's spot-on for crosscutting duties, but very slow on rip cuts for tenons and the like. Because it's slow, there's more chance for it to wander.

The 'ideal' solution for a cabinetmaker is probably to have at least three backsaws. A 10" very fine rip filed, narrowish saw for dovetails and very small tenons, a 12" 13ppi crosscut about 2" to 2 1/2" blade depth, and a big 14" deep-bladed 13ppi for larger tenons and other rip cuts (such as separating the lids of glued-up boxes, for example). A joiner may prefer larger crosscut and tenon saws with slightly coarser teeth, to reflect the larger sizes of most joinery work. For anything bigger on the crosscut front, you'd use a handsaw or machine.

After sleeping on it, I'm leaning towards the Roberts and Lee Dorchester 14" 13ppi rip from Flinn Garlick Saws. It will work straight out of the box, and the walnut handle should reshape nicely if I feel inclined. About £95 for a premium saw sounds about right, and it will last a couple of lifetimes. (The LN will also work perfectly out-of-the-box, and won't need it's handle reshaped either, but 10ppi rip may be a bit aggressive for most cabinet work, and £150 is a lot of beer tokens....)
 

scubadoo

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Thanks for all the advice

£95 is also a lot of beer tokens mind :lol:
 

GazPal

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I'll second and third the vote for Spear and Jackson tenon saws (Anything from their Spearior or 88 ranges) on debay. Especially if you're familiar or willing to become familiar with saw sharpening. Another to keep an eye open for are saws by Tyzack, Sandvik and Disston.

Avoid Spear and Jackson Workhorse saws as they're diy level with rivetted handles and lack taper grind to their blades.
 
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