That was one of my objections to oil as well. In the UK at the time I installed our system I had the choice of a double walled tank or a bund wall. LPG tanks are much less intrusive and our is screened by a hedge.
Roy.
Roy.
Heating systems in France. Just toooo interesting!!!
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Digit, how much is it for a litre of LPG in comparison to oil now in the uk, and are the prices for the boilers themselves comparable? I would have thought that the reliability of the LPG would have been better too with a cleaner combustion process.
head clansman
Established Member
hi
future heating costs will decide which way you should go , me if i was there i would choose solar , wood pellets , and the underground thermal heating system , expensive i understand to install , but after that :wink: hc
future heating costs will decide which way you should go , me if i was there i would choose solar , wood pellets , and the underground thermal heating system , expensive i understand to install , but after that :wink: hc
LPG is currently slightly dearer than oil at the moment Decklan. LPG boilers are very much cheaper than oil fired units, and in my experience, more reliable. Overall the installation of LPG is probably half that of oil.
With oil YOU pay for the tank, with LPG it remains the property of the gas supplier. I pay 50 pound/annum for maintenance and rental
All this is UK remember, might be different with you, so now you know where to start! :lol:
We had to supply a concrete base, the supplier gave us the dimensions, which in our case was 2mtrs by 1mtr by 100mm thick and a narrow trench 400mil deep to the house where they supply and fit a cut off valve.
The trench was bloody nightmare as I kept hitting stones wider than the trench, plus the fact I was undergoing cancer treatment that knackered me.
Installation of tank, pipe, which they supply, and cut off valve took a couple of hours.
In other words the equipment to bring gas to the house, not the boiler, was all part of the rental agreement.
Our supplier runs a payment scheme where I pay a fixed sum per month.
Roy.
With oil YOU pay for the tank, with LPG it remains the property of the gas supplier. I pay 50 pound/annum for maintenance and rental
All this is UK remember, might be different with you, so now you know where to start! :lol:
We had to supply a concrete base, the supplier gave us the dimensions, which in our case was 2mtrs by 1mtr by 100mm thick and a narrow trench 400mil deep to the house where they supply and fit a cut off valve.
The trench was bloody nightmare as I kept hitting stones wider than the trench, plus the fact I was undergoing cancer treatment that knackered me.
Installation of tank, pipe, which they supply, and cut off valve took a couple of hours.
In other words the equipment to bring gas to the house, not the boiler, was all part of the rental agreement.
Our supplier runs a payment scheme where I pay a fixed sum per month.
Roy.
Ok, this how my head is turning at the mo,
Wood burning stove with back boiler ( wood is everywhere here, loads of forests etc) linked to lpg combi boiler, Solar panels when I can afford it.
Is that possible, or is the combi boiler a stand alone system?
My reasoning. Wood pellets require one to clean the system..I think.., and require filling at regular intervals. The stove is an essential part of the country life here, feet in front of a roaring fire and all that, might as well get the water hot whilst it's on, and the LPG takes over when it's not
LPG is really clean and relativley cheap.
Price for an LPG boiler is about £1k (35kw)
Price for stove with back boiler about £1500 (25kw)
Installation of pipework and commissioning about £3k
Radiators, middle of the range, non designer X12, £1500
valves and disasters +/- £1k
about £8k (choke) the house IS typically French and massive.
It is insulated etc etc.
What have I missed? Am I crazy or just plain stoopid?
:?: :?:
Wood burning stove with back boiler ( wood is everywhere here, loads of forests etc) linked to lpg combi boiler, Solar panels when I can afford it.
Is that possible, or is the combi boiler a stand alone system?
My reasoning. Wood pellets require one to clean the system..I think.., and require filling at regular intervals. The stove is an essential part of the country life here, feet in front of a roaring fire and all that, might as well get the water hot whilst it's on, and the LPG takes over when it's not
LPG is really clean and relativley cheap.
Price for an LPG boiler is about £1k (35kw)
Price for stove with back boiler about £1500 (25kw)
Installation of pipework and commissioning about £3k
Radiators, middle of the range, non designer X12, £1500
valves and disasters +/- £1k
about £8k (choke) the house IS typically French and massive.
It is insulated etc etc.
What have I missed? Am I crazy or just plain stoopid?
:?: :?:
No! Not with a combi I don't think, but certainly with a system boiler, as I pointed out earlier, the rads don't give a damn what the heat source is.
A combi runs on a sealed system and I don't see how that can safely work with a back boiler, but I have linked boilers without problems.
Roy.
head clansman
Established Member
hi
if you follow the wood burner , do like a lot of rural french do grow there own firewood a lot of them plant small fast growing trees i assum it's call coppice over there as well . hc
if you follow the wood burner , do like a lot of rural french do grow there own firewood a lot of them plant small fast growing trees i assum it's call coppice over there as well . hc
houtslager
Established Member
hi there Whoops,
just caught this subject
but I am now in NW Germany,
and in the process of re building / refurbishing a wreck there
and building a SB workshop.
The building had NO modern heating, and the cost of
a gas main was over €1500 :shock: plus then the
boiler / pipework / rads and this all by LAW has to
be checked and certified - again mega €'s.:shock:
Fortunately, I had the old woodburner still in, so I had
that plus a couple old oil filled 'leccie rads to keep the
house semi-warm the first winter.
In fact it was so cold I was burning 2m3 of wood a DAY!!!!!
And to start my old beddie [ horsebox] I had to resort to a
camp fire under the engine/gearbox
[ same as the farmer next door for
his tractor ] mind you it was -25c
Now that I have re built the roof and built on a SB extension,
I am in the process of working out the HW and heating systems.
I have luckily 2 RAYBURNS BOTH with BACK BOILERS
One will go in the living room and its BB will run the heating
system, reasoning when cold I'll be having the stove lit and
burning so it can heat the reat of the house too.
Second one goes in the kitchen - it has 2 ovens and a BB
so this one will be used 95% of the year to cook on, thus
it can heat the HW side- thus have hot water all the time.
Due to the roof of the workshop being SOUTHERLY orientate - I
[ once funds allow ] will have approx 100m2 solar panels
and 2 or 3m2 solar collectors to supply HW when I don't require the rayburn burning at full chat.
IF you have any q's pm or email me.
All the best with your dream
hs
just caught this subject
but I am now in NW Germany, and in the process of re building / refurbishing a wreck there
and building a SB workshop.
The building had NO modern heating, and the cost of
a gas main was over €1500 :shock: plus then the
boiler / pipework / rads and this all by LAW has to
be checked and certified - again mega €'s.:shock:
Fortunately, I had the old woodburner still in, so I had
that plus a couple old oil filled 'leccie rads to keep the
house semi-warm the first winter.
In fact it was so cold I was burning 2m3 of wood a DAY!!!!!
And to start my old beddie [ horsebox] I had to resort to a
camp fire under the engine/gearbox
[ same as the farmer next door for
his tractor ] mind you it was -25c
Now that I have re built the roof and built on a SB extension,
I am in the process of working out the HW and heating systems.
I have luckily 2 RAYBURNS BOTH with BACK BOILERS
One will go in the living room and its BB will run the heating
system, reasoning when cold I'll be having the stove lit and
burning so it can heat the reat of the house too.
Second one goes in the kitchen - it has 2 ovens and a BB
so this one will be used 95% of the year to cook on, thus
it can heat the HW side- thus have hot water all the time.
Due to the roof of the workshop being SOUTHERLY orientate - I
[ once funds allow
] will have approx 100m2 solar panels and 2 or 3m2 solar collectors to supply HW when I don't require the rayburn burning at full chat
.IF you have any q's pm or email me.
All the best with your dream
hs
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you fella's, but a car load of friends turned up demanding sustenance in the form of beer. Tush and fie!!!
Houtslager, what the bejesus are you doing in a place where it drops to -25c? The beer must be DAMNABLY good and the women most pleasing
Thank you all for the help, now I'm off on another tack :lol:
Decklan.
Houtslager, what the bejesus are you doing in a place where it drops to -25c? The beer must be DAMNABLY good and the women most pleasing
Thank you all for the help, now I'm off on another tack :lol:
Decklan.
Smudger
Established Member
head clansman":2s7xgu1t said:
They don't have to be French, but you have to have a ten year guarantee on the work. Also if you don't have receipts from an artisan you can't claim the costs back against capital gains tax when you sell.
When we looked into this we were told that the most cost-effective heating was wood burning, then fioul (oil) and then electricity. That may have changed, but it was only a few years back. Also it will depend on which region you are in (ie Normandy = cheap firewood).
RogerS
Established Member
You can bury oil tanks. Make sure that you put the pipes in for the solar panels while you're doing the main system. Then when you can afford the solar panels buy them and connect them up. One thought re solar panels, don;t they require an indirect hw cylinder and a special one at that with a second heating coil at the bottom of the tank for the solar heating?
MikeG.
Established Member
Roger,
that used to be true, but there is now an after-market secondary heat exchanger which can be retro-fitted into any tanks that can take an immersion element. This is a brilliant idea........http://www.reuk.co.uk/Solar-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger.htm . I believe that this device, once well known, will make DIY solar panels and systems very much more common.
The other way around the problem is a secondary (pre-heat) tank into which the solar heat goes, but which in turn supplies the main tank in the place of the mains feed.
Mike
that used to be true, but there is now an after-market secondary heat exchanger which can be retro-fitted into any tanks that can take an immersion element. This is a brilliant idea........http://www.reuk.co.uk/Solar-Hot-Water-Heat-Exchanger.htm . I believe that this device, once well known, will make DIY solar panels and systems very much more common.
The other way around the problem is a secondary (pre-heat) tank into which the solar heat goes, but which in turn supplies the main tank in the place of the mains feed.
Mike
RogerS
Established Member
Interesting idea, Mike, but for one thing. How, in summer do you heat the water sufficiently without an immersion heater as the hole has been used up by the solar coil?
MikeG.
Established Member
Obviously this is only of use if you are connecting a solar panel to an existing tank containing a heat exchanger, heated by a boiler. If electricity is your sole method of heating the water, then you would need a pre-heat tank as I described.
I guess you meant winter rather than summer. In summer, the solar panel will provide almost all of the hot water requirements. In winter it could provide 30 to 40%.
Mike
I guess you meant winter rather than summer. In summer, the solar panel will provide almost all of the hot water requirements. In winter it could provide 30 to 40%.
Mike
JMcK
Established Member
France is a big place where are you?
Most has been covered already but the most important part is (as everywhere) good insulation.
Geothermal is expensive to install but, once you have made your tax return, there are currently grants available.
As Dick Smith has said, any system must be installed by a registered artisan to obtain the grant. It is a percentage of materials and does not include labour.
The way things are going oil or gas (storage tank) fired central heating is very expensive. With good insulation electricity is probably not as expensive as in UK. Much depends on the nature of the building, size, construction etc.
If you are in for the long term then, although initially expensive to install the running costs are a huge plus factor for geothermic.
We heat a large house with three woodburning stoves but that can be quite labour intensive.
Teaching you to suck eggs but you need to decide how you are ging before you start any of your major projects.
As far as doing the work yourself is concerned there is no problem but electrical installations need to be signed off (same in UK) and you won't get any grants for energy conservation methods. Plus the decennial insurance point which has been made. Not a problem if you are going to be resident for longer.
With all due respect to the forum, I take it you are asking similar questions on some of the forums for Brits living in France. The regulations differ in some major respects, for example, for electrical cabling which must conform to French Normes.
If I can be of any help PM me.
Most has been covered already but the most important part is (as everywhere) good insulation.
Geothermal is expensive to install but, once you have made your tax return, there are currently grants available.
As Dick Smith has said, any system must be installed by a registered artisan to obtain the grant. It is a percentage of materials and does not include labour.
The way things are going oil or gas (storage tank) fired central heating is very expensive. With good insulation electricity is probably not as expensive as in UK. Much depends on the nature of the building, size, construction etc.
If you are in for the long term then, although initially expensive to install the running costs are a huge plus factor for geothermic.
We heat a large house with three woodburning stoves but that can be quite labour intensive.
Teaching you to suck eggs but you need to decide how you are ging before you start any of your major projects.
As far as doing the work yourself is concerned there is no problem but electrical installations need to be signed off (same in UK) and you won't get any grants for energy conservation methods. Plus the decennial insurance point which has been made. Not a problem if you are going to be resident for longer.
With all due respect to the forum, I take it you are asking similar questions on some of the forums for Brits living in France. The regulations differ in some major respects, for example, for electrical cabling which must conform to French Normes.
If I can be of any help PM me.
stevel
Established Member
Hi Decklan,
Our system was supplied by Super Solar (www.supersolar.it) a local company. The system is passive and water from the tank goes through our combi boiler whenever the temperature of the water in the tank drops below 50°C. In the summmer the water is over 90°C and even in winter when the sun shines gets to about 20°C so you still save money.
There is a fiscal reduction here of 55% against income tax over a 3 year period for green enery systems so makes the system very affordable for italian tax payers(we aren,t unfortunately).
Because our boiler is condensing we have made almost a 50% saving on energy costs over the last year, about 900 euro, so as I said thew system will pay for itself in 5 years.
You can combine this sytem with a pellet boiler if needed.
Steve
Our system was supplied by Super Solar (www.supersolar.it) a local company. The system is passive and water from the tank goes through our combi boiler whenever the temperature of the water in the tank drops below 50°C. In the summmer the water is over 90°C and even in winter when the sun shines gets to about 20°C so you still save money.
There is a fiscal reduction here of 55% against income tax over a 3 year period for green enery systems so makes the system very affordable for italian tax payers(we aren,t unfortunately).
Because our boiler is condensing we have made almost a 50% saving on energy costs over the last year, about 900 euro, so as I said thew system will pay for itself in 5 years.
You can combine this sytem with a pellet boiler if needed.
Steve
dedee
Established Member
We've been in Calvados (normandy) for just over 2 years. We have electric rads in all the rooms but only the ones in the bedrooms come on for 1 hour in the morning just before we get up the rest are permanently switched off.
We heat the main living dining room with a log stove inset into a chimney with warm air vents into the living room and downstairs bedroom, I've no idea of the spec but it measures 65x33x40 cm and we burnt less than 10 steres of wood last winter. So far this winter we have only ever needed to light the stove after 5pm. We pay €45 per stere 50cm lengths split.
This house is 17 years old and is well insulated all of the outside walls have 6" of what appears to be a compressed foam insulation and with the benefit of a south facing the house warms up quickly if the sun is shining and retains the heat.
All our water is heated by electricity and only heated at night, the insulation on the tank is also very good (Thermor) The water is as warm at 8pm as it is at 8am.
We also make a point of closing the shutters at night which makes quite a difference in keeping the warm air in ( see this thread and a post from Taffy Tuner https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... s&start=15 )
I did a cost comparison between or 1930's london semi in 2006/7 with this house 2007/8 and depending on the exchange rate of course we spent either little or a helluva lot less heating this house and it is more than twice the size.
The other advantage of solid fuel wood stove is that it makes you a helluva lot more conscious of when you heat the house. Central heating makes us lazy, I'd reckon that most people have it on a lot more than is necessary. There is a lot more work involved burning wood but it is a lot more eco friendly, but you need the space to store the wood and to be around to light the flire!.
Cheers
Andy
We heat the main living dining room with a log stove inset into a chimney with warm air vents into the living room and downstairs bedroom, I've no idea of the spec but it measures 65x33x40 cm and we burnt less than 10 steres of wood last winter. So far this winter we have only ever needed to light the stove after 5pm. We pay €45 per stere 50cm lengths split.
This house is 17 years old and is well insulated all of the outside walls have 6" of what appears to be a compressed foam insulation and with the benefit of a south facing the house warms up quickly if the sun is shining and retains the heat.
All our water is heated by electricity and only heated at night, the insulation on the tank is also very good (Thermor) The water is as warm at 8pm as it is at 8am.
We also make a point of closing the shutters at night which makes quite a difference in keeping the warm air in ( see this thread and a post from Taffy Tuner https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... s&start=15 )
I did a cost comparison between or 1930's london semi in 2006/7 with this house 2007/8 and depending on the exchange rate of course we spent either little or a helluva lot less heating this house and it is more than twice the size.
The other advantage of solid fuel wood stove is that it makes you a helluva lot more conscious of when you heat the house. Central heating makes us lazy, I'd reckon that most people have it on a lot more than is necessary. There is a lot more work involved burning wood but it is a lot more eco friendly, but you need the space to store the wood and to be around to light the flire!.
Cheers
Andy
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