Heating systems in France. Just toooo interesting!!!

[whoops!]

Hi Guys

Haven't been on the forum for a while, major life change and all that(just been reading about the mid-life crises of others) Am now full time working in France, got registered, have set up my own workshop, and am now renovating the usual enormous pile of rubble in to a house...

ANYWAY....question time is here again, HEATING SYSTEMS. haven't got a bleedin' clue!!! Good with wood, rubbish with kilowatts.

I am installing a Central heating system soon, here's the list of Q's in no particular order. If any of the Q's could be answered it would be a great help...really.

1) Wall mounted oil filled rads versus ceramic Rads. Differences, effectiveness and costs to run.

2)is it possible to fit a woodburning stove with backboiler in conjunction with an electric boiler, so when the stove is not in use I can still have a warm house?

3) Are the new electric boilers expensive to run on their own. Prices here for electricity are comparable with uk.

4) Does anybody have good ideas for cheap and efficient heating. (apart from running alot)

The house is BIG, and I have a mixture of stone and insulated plasterboarded walls. Really am stuck on this one. I just don't understand all the jargon and complexities - it's like a dark Art.

Thanks Guys, ANY help would be appreciated.

Decklan.

 

[RogerS]

How long do you plan to live there? Do you have a largish area of flat ground (as in earth or grass) outside near to the house? If the answer is yes to both then think about a ground source heat pump. Any grants in France towards installing 'green' systems?

Do you have a roof that faces South? if yes, then instal some solar panels.

Split up your decisions into two separate areas...(1) domestic hot water and how are you going to heat it and (2) central heating hot water and how are you going to heat that.

Do NOT under any circumstances think about using electricity as the heat source for your central heating. Unless you have a rich uncle who owns EDF.

How many people are going to be living there? What's the water pressure like? Do they have combi boilers in France? Might be a way to go.

You say the house is large. How far will the furthest hot water outlet be from wherever you re going to install your boiler? If a long long way away then think about putting in a well-lagged secondary return that circulates domestic hot water in a loop back to the hot water tank. This avoids the waste of cold water that you have to run before you get any hot water plus the cost of having to heat up the same amount of wasted hot water as once you have turned the tap off, that hot water is going to sit there in the long long pipe getting cold and wasting your money.

Huge project. So many many variables.

If your rooms are large then think about insulating all the external facing walls internally.

 

[whoops!]

Thanks Roger,

Just as I feared. Really complicated. I thought that the latest of the latest electric boilers working on a cheap tariff might have been acceptable, but I take your point entirely.

I do have south facing roof space ( about 270msq) but I have found the initial cost of the products somewhat terrifying, even with the government grant. The cost of insulation is again enourmous.

what land I do have is used for the Fosse Septique ( septic tank and drainage area,)

There is no gas supply here as I am very rural, and the cost of installing a gas/oil supply/tank is big. The prices just keep on going up and up and up.....

Thank you for your suggestions, but the idea of an electric system in conjunction with a woodburning backboiler at the mo seems the most acceptable. The cost of installing the other systems is HUGE and offsets the savings they appear to offer.

Thoughts???

Decklan

 

[Digit]

Roger's way of breaking the project down is the way to go Decklan. Deal with individual elements rather than the whole project, it become much less frightening that way and more easily managed.
As Rog says, no matter how attractive it may seem electricity is the worse possible scenario if you intend living there for any reasonable period of time.
How about LPG? Clean burning, cheaper than leckky and only requires a suitable hard standing for the tank plus the boilers are cheaper than oil burners and without the 'orrible oil smell.

Roy.

 

[whoops!]

hmmm, hadn't thought of LPG.... I really am cringing at the installation costs of everything over her. I am here full time now, on my own at the present ( divorce and 'orrible stuff since I last posted,)

It might be that Rodger's idea of solar panels for the hot water and the backboiler system for the central heating is the way to go.

Are the solar panels they have now that efficient? Is the price for their installation huge? ( question's, question's, questions )

Decklan

 

[RogerS]

I don't quite understand the statement that installing an oil tank is expensive unless France has some peculiarly oblique requirements that incur the expense. If they are that expensive in France then buy one in the UK and ship it out. Not that expensive.

Certainly running in a gas pipe will be prohibitiveky expensive.

PS - I love the phrase Fosse Septique....gives me visions of ordure running streets in Ye Olde London

 

[MikeG.]

Roger is spot on, although I don't think much of heat pumps. In France and Germany there are hundreds of thousands of wood pellet boilers, with good supplies of the pellets. I would match one of those up to a solar hot water system 'twere it me.

Your first priority should be reducing heat losses, though. That may well mean sealing off chimneys, draught proofing everywhere and installing a mechanical ventialtion system........easy if the house is in chaos. Install a wood-burning stove with flue, and don't do anything that involves heat using electicity.

Mike

 

[Digit]

And stop being frightened of it Decklan! A wet heating system is well within any competent DIYer's ability, all the info you need is available in books and on the net, and even here!
Look at the system as three separate parts. The heat source, the radiators and the control system.
The rads don't give a damn what the heat source is for a starter.
The biggest problem I faced with our system was the instruction book that came with the boiler!

Roy.

 

[whoops!]

Over here the installation of an oil or gas tank has its problems. With the gas tank installation you are tied to a contract to the company for years after, and for the oil tank it is the price of the installation, concrete pad, and then the location which puts me off. The price for a litre of the black stuff went up to a euro a litre last year....ulp, some households had to huddle around kerosene lamps and all that....

.....but I DO like the idea of the solar panels for the hot water. Do they work even in winter or do you have to have a cross over system to electricity on the grey days we all love so much?

Wood pellets, got enough of those in the work shop, I have no idea of availability here in France, I have just checked out a Polish web site and I can get a 45,000 btu system for just over a grand. Servicing and parts might be a prob tho'. What's the price of coal these days? Used to have a coal system and a hopper when I was a student. Worked well too.

Solar Panels and wood pellets, does anyone one out there have said systems?

Thanks you guys this really,really helpful stuff, and really is appreciated.

Decklan

 

[Digit]

LPG does come with a contract I agree, but I have not found that to be a problem Decklan.
With solar panels you agin need to break down the installations into separate problems. There is a significant amount of plumbing involved and, depending on your water/heat usage, the requirement for sizable tank capacity.
It's years since I was involved in one but at that time in the UK solar panels were normally used as pre-heaters for the primary heating source rather than as the prime source of hot water.

Roy.

 

[stevel]

We have solar panels for hot water here in northern Italy. From April until October there is no need to use the boiler unless we get more than 3 days without sun. We spent 3000 euro on installation and think we will recover the cost in 5 years, less if gas keeps going up!

Over the summer we used only 3 cubic meters of gas and that was for cooking.

Pellet stoves are very popular here as are wood burners. most people dont use gas or too much electricity due to the high cost.

Steve

 

[whoops!]

Yes sir Digit, I shall endevour to do better sir :lol: thank you sir,

Actually you are quite right. In the workshop I am currently making a huge set of 3m X 3m windows with openers for a barn door frontage, and here I am terrified by a bunch of radiators.

I think what it is ,is that there are so many systems available and each one has it's merit's and pitfalls. The amount of money to be spent on this system that apart from my workshop and house, will represent the largest amount of spent on something that doesn't even slightly involve the fun word.

I really don't want to make the wrong choice. How many probs did you have Digit?



:shock: :shock:

 

[head clansman]

hi

umm , someone correct me here, being a diy here is one thing, over there when heating and electrics are installed don't you have to employ french electrician and heating engineers to sign off the two system when completed so that they meet the french regs, something to do with if you sell at a later date so it,s all correct for the next buyers, insurance, things like that etc. hc

 

[whoops!]

Steve,Digit... can you recommend a make, usage will be for 2-3 people. Summers here are hot, hot, hot (35-45c)... the winters- enough to freeze the monkeys thingymajiggy's. (-15c )

 

[whoops!]

Hi hc,

Yes. they inspect everything. and everything requires a ton of paperwork. That'll be France then!! :?

 

[Digit]

I installed my own boiler Decklan then had it commisioned to cover myself for insurance purposes. I had dozens of problems, each one was dealt with at the planning stage by using the net and joining an appropriate forum. Each problem was dealt with singularly.
For example, your first move is calculating the necessary boiler size, regardless of fuel. Deal with that first, as you solve each problem so your confidence will improve.

Roy.

 

[head clansman]

hi

i thought so , so you cant just get stuck in and do it all yourself like i have done in the past in this country , could end up being a bit costly, and time wasting aarrghh .hc

 

[RogerS]

Mike's suggestion of wood pellets and solar panels is the way to go. If not then what's the cost of a concrete base, for Gods' sake? Mix it yourself!

 

[Digit]

Mix it yourself!

I got the wife to do ours! :lol:

Roy.

 

[whoops!]

Actually I'm looking for an excuse not to have to have some blot on the lancscape of an oil tank sitting in the corner of my lawn...

the girlfriend looks handy enough tho' if I should change my mind!!! :lol: :lol: