Guns,guns, and more Guns

[Jacob]

Don't mess with me man - I proudly open carry!

(my back is knackered though; Madame La Guillotine is bl**dy heavy)

No good for school massacres (I'm told). Unless Festool can get on the case? Start with an MFT?

 

[D_W]

No good for school massacres (I'm told). Unless Festool can get on the case? Start with an MFT?

They won't do more, just maybe a little more neatly and the guy that services them will be johnny on the spot.

 

[Ozi]

I think statistically, close to half of the crime comes from two things:
* households with broken families
* households with controlling mothers or terrible drunken abusive fathers

What's apparently out of bounds now is providing a message of how honorable it is to be a good father despite the payback not being monetary. It's viewed now as being bigoted and the only group I can think of who has pushed a public campaign of making note of fatherhood is a one-off not-for-profit that's funded by various churches.

When they place signs near me, they get defaced instantly.

Serial killers often come from one of the two bits above, though there are some who are just genuine defects from birth.

Very true. I think we all know that not everyone is equal but believe all should have equal opportunity, then at the same time work to give our own children every advantage we can.

The last bit is the bit I don't understand. I think we probably have the same proportion of "genuine defects from both" In England most just sit and stew, the best from their point of view they could do is attack someone with a knife etc. and even their twisted imagination doesn't see that going well, if they could lay their hands on serious guns we would have as many school shootings as America.

 

[GregW]

all problems starts when children are constantly told NOT as order “you being told”, instead explained HOW or INSTEAD OF.
But which parent have a lot of time to explain reality to children? Much easier to BLAME others for own failures.

Very true. I think we all know that not everyone is equal but believe all should have equal opportunity, then at the same time work to give our own children every advantage we can.

The last bit is the bit I don't understand. I think we probably have the same proportion of "genuine defects from both" In England most just sit and stew, the best from their point of view they could do is attack someone with a knife etc. and even their twisted imagination doesn't see that going well, if they could lay their hands on serious guns we would have as many school shootings as America.

Also, do you know that children left alone unattended and which have whatever they want to have, both have PERSONALITY DISORDERS due to dopamine stress when hit “reality” in adulthood? There is ZERO education on parenting

I think statistically, close to half of the crime comes from two things:
* households with broken families
* households with controlling mothers or terrible drunken abusive fathers

What's apparently out of bounds now is providing a message of how honorable it is to be a good father despite the payback not being monetary. It's viewed now as being bigoted and the only group I can think of who has pushed a public campaign of making note of fatherhood is a one-off not-for-profit that's funded by various churches.

When they place signs near me, they get defaced instantly.

Serial killers often come from one of the two bits above, though there are some who are just genuine defects from birth.

Effects of zero education on behaviour dependency of dopamine receptors misuse and/or abuse, passed to venerable children adapting the needs to their reality.
It’s easier to abuse “alcohol”, than facing own “fears”. There is zero education on self motivation for children, instead children are being sold imaginary portraits of perfection and to obey the system.

 

[Keith Cocker]

Nobody seems to want to talk about guillotines, garotting, or the noose?
Why is this?
Is it the absence of cowboy or glamorous gangster associations?
Guillotine sharpening could have some mileage in it I imagine.

Wood turning of knitting needles for the Tricoteuses would be of interest

 

[artie]

if they could lay their hands on serious guns we would have as many school shootings as America.

I don't think so and the statistics don't support it either.

Up to 1987 or so semiauto rifles were available in the UK.
Up to 1996 or so handguns were available.

In the hundred years before 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.
in the 25 year period after 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.

Doesn't look like the availability of guns is a deciding factor. But it's a nice short sound bite for the evening news.

I just know someone will come back and say " There would have been more shootings if guns hadn't been banned" even though gun crime increased sharply in the following years, and there were as many mass shootings in a 25 year period than in the previous century.

Marcus Aurelius even had a saying in Roman times something like "a sword kills no one without a hand to guide it"

 

[Fergie 307]

A long drop also adds to the anticipation of the guillotinee.

And if you want to be really cruel you can put your victim in it face up, so they can see it coming. I think they actually did that in some places.

 

[D_W]

Very true. I think we all know that not everyone is equal but believe all should have equal opportunity, then at the same time work to give our own children every advantage we can.

The last bit is the bit I don't understand. I think we probably have the same proportion of "genuine defects from both" In England most just sit and stew, the best from their point of view they could do is attack someone with a knife etc. and even their twisted imagination doesn't see that going well, if they could lay their hands on serious guns we would have as many school shootings as America.

The last comment wasn't intended to compare different societies. Apparently, Russia has had some extremely prodigious serial killers, aided by bureacratic apathy and the ability to ignore or hide the fact that people were disappearing. Certainly the environment that nutters can operate in makes for differences.

My point with it was more to say that you can't just make a 100% blanket statement that if you "had all dads and moms and people who go to church that everyone would be better". it's probably likely that the overall totals would be better, but there are still going to be a few people who are genuinely defective who aren't just helped by having a good dad around.

I read a few things about mass killers and it's hard to get an honest viewpoint - some groups seem to be determined to say "well, they just spring out of nothing", and others seem to be determined to attribute all of them to lack of a dad. The more realistic studies suggested that a large number of the serial killers were products of a household where dad was gone and mom was a rotten person, or dad was there and was abusive and belittling/alcoholic, etc (not just like dad says "your'e a disappointment every 6 months or so, but is abusive continuously every day - the killers in that case lose their sense of productive human relationships and seek to find a situation they can control - that doesn't end well).

Ed kemper comes to mind in terms of the bad mother. Ed gein, also, but for a different reason - the mother who makes it impossible for the son to get away.

maybe it's the name Ed!! Ed makes dead!

 

[Spectric]

I'm not anti gun but I do think it's totally out of control in some countries.

Everything is getting out of control, not just guns. Boil this down to simplicity and you soon realise that guns are no more dangerous than a car or pitchfork, the problem is that humans seem to have some built in trait for not getting on with each other and like to blame others for their problems or life and then resort to killing, the gun is just a tool to some like drills are to many of us. On a larger scale you have conflicts between countries, they are not settled diplomatically because this inbuilt trait kicks in and violence occurs. As I have said before, once AI gets going then humans will become extinct or servants to AI because AI will see us for who we are and realise we are just to much trouble.

 

[Fergie 307]

Nobody seems to want to talk about guillotines, garotting, or the noose?
Why is this?
Is it the absence of cowboy or glamorous gangster associations?
Guillotine sharpening could have some mileage in it I imagine.

Ok, so I have retired to the bunker, tin hat firmly on my head.......how about a guillotine sharpening guide, anyone?

 

[Droogs]

OK, First get yourself a Frenchman ...

 

[Ozi]

I don't think so and the statistics don't support it either.

Up to 1987 or so semiauto rifles were available in the UK.
Up to 1996 or so handguns were available.

In the hundred years before 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.
in the 25 year period after 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.

Doesn't look like the availability of guns is a deciding factor. But it's a nice short sound bite for the evening news.

I just know someone will come back and say " There would have been more shootings if guns hadn't been banned" even though gun crime increased sharply in the following years, and there were as many mass shootings in a 25 year period than in the previous century.

Marcus Aurelius even had a saying in Roman times something like "a sword kills no one without a hand to guide it"

Factually you are correct in that it was possible to own those guns at that time in the UK but are you seriously suggesting that the ease of obtaining them was in any way comparable.

There are countries with high levels of gun ownership and much lower levels of related crime but they have much higher levels of education related to the use of firearms.

 

[artie]

Factually you are correct in that it was possible to own those guns at that time in the UK but are you seriously suggesting that the ease of obtaining them was in any way comparable.

Comparable to what?
There was no difficulty in obtaining them I think the fact that Michael Ryan had at least one proves that.

There are countries with high levels of gun ownership and much lower levels of related crime but they have much higher levels of education related to the use of firearms.

I don't see what education has to do with having the desire to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

 

[Fergie 307]

I think there is an important point here. In the UK we may not have always had strong regulation of guns, we have a long history of registration. This has meant that, when changes have been made to legislation, it is fairly easy for the authorities to know who has what weapons. I believe the same is true in Australia.
Whilst I am no student of the history of gun law in the USA, I suspect you don't have to go very far back to find a situation where there was essentially no regulation of registration requirement at all, and of course it has always been the case that there will be wide variations from state to state.So I am guessing there are probably a great many firearms in the USA which were acquired perfectly lawfully, but are completely unknown to the authorities. Nothing to criticise there, just a reflection of the very different history of our countries. Perhaps Artie, or one of our other contributors across the pond could comment.
The issue being that if that is the case then even if the US authorities wanted to introduce the sort of measures we have, it would be virtually impossible to do so from a practical point of view.

 

[GregW]

I think there is an important point here. In the UK we may not have always had strong regulation of guns, we have a long history of registration. This has meant that, when changes have been made to legislation, it is fairly easy for the authorities to know who has what weapons. I believe the same is true in Australia.
Whilst I am no student of the history of gun law in the USA, I suspect you don't have to go very far back to find a situation where there was essentially no regulation of registration requirement at all, and of course it has always been the case that there will be wide variations from state to state.So I am guessing there are probably a great many firearms in the USA which were acquired perfectly lawfully, but are completely unknown to the authorities. Nothing to criticise there, just a reflection of the very different history of our countries. Perhaps Artie, or one of our other contributors across the pond could comment.
The issue being that if that is the case then even if the US authorities wanted to introduce the sort of measures we have, it would be virtually impossible to do so from a practical point of view.

Perfect point.
Bare in mind that country creation and border frictions associated with it was in Europe a millennia ago, where US stopped wiping native population several decades pass.
Fire arms were necessity to be save from everyone not complying with rising authority of US government, slaves, natives, foreigners running to America from European common laws, AND the size comparison it self, local common diversity.
UK it’s strange situation when English from London visit North Wales…..
how about add 2 time zones coast to coast difference….

PS. registration of weapons goes in UK to Middle Ages…
Remember law about unregistered 6 feet long bow possession in Nottingham, or no sharpen short sword permitted in Scotland in Scottish home??

 

[GregW]

Comparable to what?
There was no difficulty in obtaining them I think the fact that Michael Ryan had at least one proves that.


I don't see what education has to do with having the desire to pick up a gun and shoot someone.

Education level:
Lest compare a dentist on 100k per year;
Person after 12y of higher education will rarely knife attack and stab gramma in local park, to gain money via robbery in order to purchase cigarettes in local petrol station….
More common in low educated unemployed group of people…

 

[artie]

Education level:
Lest compare a dentist on 100k per year;
Person after 12y of higher education will rarely knife attack and stab gramma in local park, to gain money via robbery in order to purchase cigarettes in local petrol station….
More common in low educated unemployed group of people…

Quite right you are, but we're talking about guns my reply was to Ozi who said.
" There are countries with high levels of gun ownership and much lower levels of related crime but they have much higher levels of education related to the use of firearms. "

Maybe I should have said.
I don't think being educated in the use firearms would necessarily negate their use, but it would quite likely mean they could be used more efficiently.

 

[artie]

I am guessing there are probably a great many firearms in the USA which were acquired perfectly lawfully, but are completely unknown to the authorities. Nothing to criticise there, just a reflection of the very different history of our countries. Perhaps Artie, or one of our other contributors across the pond could comment.
The issue being that if that is the case then even if the US authorities wanted to introduce the sort of measures we have, it would be virtually impossible to do so from a practical point of view.

I think that is a valid point as far as the USA is concerned,

But the reality is when tons of illicit drugs and even people can cross borders pretty much unhindered, there's no reason why guns can't.
I understand that there is likely not the appetite for guns that there is for mind altering substances but there is a market and with rising crime that market may increase, both in the criminal community and in the general public.
More people may adopt the old adage, better tried by twelve than carried by 6.

 

[TRITON]

I don't think so and the statistics don't support it either.

Up to 1987 or so semiauto rifles were available in the UK.
Up to 1996 or so handguns were available.

In the hundred years before 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.
in the 25 year period after 1996 there were two mass shootings of civilians by a civilian in GB.

Doesn't look like the availability of guns is a deciding factor. But it's a nice short sound bite for the evening news.

I just know someone will come back and say " There would have been more shootings if guns hadn't been banned" even though gun crime increased sharply in the following years, and there were as many mass shootings in a 25 year period than in the previous century.

Marcus Aurelius even had a saying in Roman times something like "a sword kills no one without a hand to guide it"

 

[Jacob]

....... the problem is that humans seem to have some built in trait for not getting on with each other .....

Exactly the opposite.
The world-dominating success of homo sapiens is based on cooperation and co-existence - deeply entrenched natural traits. We are pack animals.
The cynics, misanthropes, xenophobes, racists, mysogynists, psychopaths, power/wealth hungry, lethal weapon obsessives, otherwise antisocial and deranged, have a huge disproportionately disruptive effect compared to their numbers.
Read "Humankind a Hopeful History" Rutger Bregman.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/may/12/humankind-a-hopeful-history-by-rutger-bregman-review