Green spindles?

[Killingtime]

Hi there,
I'm after some advice on processing green wood for stair spindles. 
I have a customer whose garden I maintain and they are having some good size cherry trees down. They know I turn and are interested in incorporating the wood into their house. As the trees are straight and fairly branch free, spindles came to mind. 
I have a reasonable understanding of the process for green bowl work but I have done little in the way of green spindle making. I am assuming I take the cord of timber, cut the pith out and make a blank ready for rough turning. 
What I want to know is do I rough it out while wet and then true up later or dry the blank fully? Could I expect it to flex so much that it would just become well sawn fire wood? Do I even want to be attempting doing this with cherry? Should I be doing some back pedalling?
The trees come down in 2 weeks time so i've got that long to work it out. 

Any advice welcome 

Tom

 

[adidat]

probably your best bet is to plank it if its large enough and give it a year to dry out a bit then have a go.

adidat

 

[CHJ]

Cherry, about the most challenging you could pick.
Think in terms of several years on the home drying front if you can stop it spliting.

 

[Killingtime]

I didn't realise cherry was so tricky I must of had plenty of luck on my side in the past. I know where there is a wood mizer locally so i can get it sawn and I can stack it in a building on site so I don't have to clutter up my place for years to come. What sort of thickness plank would you recomend? Is there a standard spindle blank size? I know it depends on the finished article but I'm working without any speck so a ball park figure would be a good starting point.

 

[AndyT]

I've not done this myself but... if you can get a fresh, straight log, and you only need spindles about a metre long, would it not make sense to split them out? That way you get max strength (as the grain runs all the way along the piece). You could turn them straight away too, without waiting for years. (There would be some distortion over time, and a circular cross section would become slightly oval, but I'm assuming you don't want something that looks like it came off a copy turning machine.)

It's a standard green woodworking technique.

 

[chipmunk]

I'd be tempted to take a lower cost route because if the wood mizer costs you money to hire and it all splits on you, you've got a lot of expensive firewood. Slabs are nice and easy to handle but for spindles those square faces will all get lost anyway.

If you have enough wood then why not try experimenting? I reckon you can't beat riven timber anyway - much stronger and nicer to turn and I think if it's straight grained cherry will rive nicely.

If you haven't got a froe (!) then an axe on the pith hit with a lump hammer (wear goggles just in case either head chips!) or, better, a BIG heavy mallet will improve your precision.

I'd try riving a 3' log into two down through the pith and seal the ends of it and perhaps rive another into two and then into rough segments big enough to accomodate 2 1/4" round spindles which may give you 2" rounds eventually. Again seal all of the ends and set them aside. They should dry a lot quicker.

(Edit: Sorry Andy T. beat me to it!)

Anyway like this...

HTH
Jon

 

[Spindle]

Hi

I buy all of my spindle turning stock in board form, (kiln dried). I look for boards of 50mm and greater in thickness which I convert to blanks on a bandsaw. If you decide to plank your stock I'd recommend nothing less than 55mm thick.
Why not have a search for info on the web regarding chair bodgers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodging

They used green wood to produce the spindles for the chairmaking industry - from memory the spindles were turned green and stacked outside awaiting collection. I'm not sure how cherry would behave under these conditions but it might be worth an experiment.

Edit to say - "seems like the three of us are talking from the same script "

Regards Mick

 

[Killingtime]

I like the I idea if splitting them and i recon the trees are good for it too. Iv also had a big cherry down on another job so I have got lots to play with. I have done a little splitting in the past helping the forester I used to work with on a pole lathe demo. Il see if I can tempt him out with the promis of beer and some wood. Being that I'm in bodger territory it would be quite fitting to do it that way.
Turn green or dry first? The house they are destined for is old so something going oval isn't a problem but I don't want banana shapes. I would expect clean grain not to wonder too far but might it get kinky around knotty bits?

 

[chipmunk]

The choice of turning first or drying first is up to you - the turning will be easier if done green and they will dry faster because they'll be smaller and are less prone to splitting but if you turn them first they will definately go oval - longest axis will be 90 degrees to the growth rings.

If riven from straight stock I think they will be very unlikely to warp.

I would try to avoid knots if you can and for long spindles I'd also avoid the branchwood - stick to the straight bowl of the tree which shouldn't have any reaction wood if it's grown pretty vertical. The branchwood is fine for shorter sections but in cherry it's still a good idea to cleave it down the pith to reduce checking.

Don't forget to end-seal everything as soon as possible after cutting (PVA, wax, acrylic varnish, oil paint or anything to slow down the drying from the end-grain).
Jon

 

[Killingtime]

That's a big 10-4 on covering end grain! I should have enough wood down to do it knot free if not iv got my eye on a couple of other cherry trees on another job which might come down with a sudden case of chainsaw-itus! If it going oval is the only problem (normal risk of cracking aside) il make my mind up on wet or dry turning depending on my work load at the time.
Thank you one and all for your advice hopefully il be able to report back in a couple of weeks with a pic like Jon's. That or il have a nice warm fire!

Tom

 

[tekno.mage]

Hi

They used green wood to produce the spindles for the chairmaking industry - from memory the spindles were turned green and stacked outside awaiting collection. I'm not sure how cherry would behave under these conditions but it might be worth an experiment.

Regards Mick

The use of green wood to make chair spindles was because the wood did go oval - and in so doing made a much tighter fit in the drilled holes in the the seat or top rail of the chair.
This may not be so desirable with stair spindles :-(

The best bet for the cherry stair spindles is to quarter split long logs, and then either rough turn oversize (to speed up drying) and paint the ends or leave as quarters with painted ends. Whatever you do, make sure you have more quarter split bits than you'll need as some are bound to split even with careful drying.

 

[chipmunk]

Hi Kym,
I think you may be right about spindles in old green stick-chairs but the Windsor chairmaking bodgers Stuart King writes about probably had at least the tenons re-trued to round once the spindles were dry and prior to assembly. By the time they got to the assembly shop they'd be oval and I'm far from convinced they'd have drilled oval holes to match.

Not sure whether the retruing'd be done on a lathe or with a big pencil sharpener tenon cutter a bit like these...

http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-veritas-tapered-tenon-cutters-prod788444/

Those Windsor chairs got their strength from being tapered tenons and on old chairs you can often see where the tenons stick up through the seats as they dried out further over time.

So anyway I think this supports your idea of rough turning and then finishing off when dry.

Jon

 

[tekno.mage]

Hi John,

Possibly they used a pencil-sharpener type tool or a rounding plane to true up things after they dried - trying to turn dry timber on a pole-lathe is a a thankless task!

I often rough turn green wood if I know what it is destined to become (other wise I leave it in split quarter or half logs) - if only because rough truning removes unwanted wood and so shortens drying times.