bugbear
Established Member
studders":2bvg1hkf said:
Yes - the plane would need to be held exactly and consistently level for many, many strokes whilst the wet 'n' dry made a flat area big enough to act as a register.
Doesn't sound likely.
BugBear
Got me a No7, what say ye?
- Thread starter CroppyBoy1798
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Yes - the plane would need to be held exactly and consistently level for many, many strokes whilst the wet 'n' dry made a flat area big enough to act as a register.
Doesn't sound likely.
BugBear
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
No. Just pressure in the middle.studders":s8cl4z3p said:
You are only grinding the middle - with a gradually expanding flat area.
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":vmf00wlw said:
One might hope so, yes. ;-)
BugBear
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
The point is - even if it rocks a bit it is still getting flatter, as long as it doesn't rock as far as the ends - so that they stay un-touched until the end.bugbear":3mna6ibb said:
As it gets flatter it rocks less.
CroppyBoy1798
Established Member
yetloh":3sxzmtd4 said:
What?! Are you crazy?! Why would you want to make furniture when you could spend a lifetime tuning up and fettling old tools!!
:lol: :wink:
Some interesting info there re: lapping. Thankfully the ol' girl seems pretty flat, although I did read somewhere (must try and find it again) that planes dont need to be perfectly flat? It was in a book on planes I believe, more or less said that a perfectly flat plane was a rarity and was not essential to the flattening of boards (Obviously printed before LN and such were doing the rounds).
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Absolutely agree. I couldn't be bothered. That's why I dumped my no7 and bought another one. Just keep buying/selling old ones until you get exactly what you want. Can't remember if I made a profit or loss, but there wouldn't have been much in it.yetloh":1vvgp3vz said:
CroppyBoy1798
Established Member
Ah, here we go, from p.53-54 of 'The Handplane Book' by Garrett Hack
There is no universal rule that planes
must have perfectly flat soles to work
well; in fact, there is a whole tradition
that believes just the opposite. Eastern
craftsmen regularly shape the soles of
their planes in a very shallow, wave-like
pattern with special scraping planes, by
relieving some of the wood between the
toe and throat and heel and throat. I am
less familiar with this tradition, but I do
know that relieving the sole doesn't
affect the way the plane works and
makes truing the sole easier. The longer
the plane, the less critical it is to have it
flat along its entire length. What's
important is knowing where the sole
needs to be flat and true.
There are two aspects to the "flatness"
of the sole: its truth down the length and
across the width and any potential twist
or winding along the length. Before you
start lapping the sole, use a straightedge
and feeler gauge to test how flat the sole
really is. Hold the plane upside-down
up to a window or bright light with an
accurate straightedge against the sole and
sight along the joint between the two
(see the photo above). The faintest hair
of light is somewhere around 0.001 in.well
within acceptable tolerances. Where
there are larger gaps, try differentthickness
feeler gauges to get an idea of
how much of the sole you'll need to lap
away. Also flip the straightedge end for
end and use the opposite edge to see if
there is any variation in your straightedge
that might be misleading you. On used
planes there's a good chance that the sole
is worn just ahead of the throat and at
the toe and heel. The area in front of the
throat wears from the friction of
pressing down the wood fibers as the
shaving is forced through the throat.
While a totally flat sole is not
absolutely necessary, having one without
any twist is a must. No plane will work
accurately if it rocks from side to side on
a twisted sole. Check the sole for twist by
sighting across a pair of winding sticks,
as shown in the photo above. (For more
on using winding sticks, see the sidebar
on p. 101.)
Even the soles of new planes need
tuning. One explanation I've heard for
the poorer quality and warped soles of
modern cast-iron planes is the use of
inferior cast iron-some of it recycled.
Others claim that the fresh castings need
to be "seasoned" just as wood does before
the sole is milled flat, and more care
could be taken with the milling, too.
Even with virgin cast iron, I'm sure that
at the height of Stanley production
some of its planes were sold without
totally true soles. It's easy enough to
check the sole as part of tuning each
plane, and every few years to check the
ones that see a lot of use. Cast iron, steel,
and bronze do wear, especially when
planing hardwoods.
There is no universal rule that planes
must have perfectly flat soles to work
well; in fact, there is a whole tradition
that believes just the opposite. Eastern
craftsmen regularly shape the soles of
their planes in a very shallow, wave-like
pattern with special scraping planes, by
relieving some of the wood between the
toe and throat and heel and throat. I am
less familiar with this tradition, but I do
know that relieving the sole doesn't
affect the way the plane works and
makes truing the sole easier. The longer
the plane, the less critical it is to have it
flat along its entire length. What's
important is knowing where the sole
needs to be flat and true.
There are two aspects to the "flatness"
of the sole: its truth down the length and
across the width and any potential twist
or winding along the length. Before you
start lapping the sole, use a straightedge
and feeler gauge to test how flat the sole
really is. Hold the plane upside-down
up to a window or bright light with an
accurate straightedge against the sole and
sight along the joint between the two
(see the photo above). The faintest hair
of light is somewhere around 0.001 in.well
within acceptable tolerances. Where
there are larger gaps, try differentthickness
feeler gauges to get an idea of
how much of the sole you'll need to lap
away. Also flip the straightedge end for
end and use the opposite edge to see if
there is any variation in your straightedge
that might be misleading you. On used
planes there's a good chance that the sole
is worn just ahead of the throat and at
the toe and heel. The area in front of the
throat wears from the friction of
pressing down the wood fibers as the
shaving is forced through the throat.
While a totally flat sole is not
absolutely necessary, having one without
any twist is a must. No plane will work
accurately if it rocks from side to side on
a twisted sole. Check the sole for twist by
sighting across a pair of winding sticks,
as shown in the photo above. (For more
on using winding sticks, see the sidebar
on p. 101.)
Even the soles of new planes need
tuning. One explanation I've heard for
the poorer quality and warped soles of
modern cast-iron planes is the use of
inferior cast iron-some of it recycled.
Others claim that the fresh castings need
to be "seasoned" just as wood does before
the sole is milled flat, and more care
could be taken with the milling, too.
Even with virgin cast iron, I'm sure that
at the height of Stanley production
some of its planes were sold without
totally true soles. It's easy enough to
check the sole as part of tuning each
plane, and every few years to check the
ones that see a lot of use. Cast iron, steel,
and bronze do wear, especially when
planing hardwoods.
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":3bgw32jd said:
When did you first notice the plane you bought in 1975 was no good
BugBear
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Good question. Bought it before I got machines and then hardly used it at all for years, just using a 5 1/2 and a block plane. Ditto with a 4 1/2 which I hardly use and have found no particular use for.bugbear":14g6bq8s said:Jacob":14g6bq8s said:
When did you first notice the plane you bought in 1975 was no good
BugBear
Change of work pattern including revived interest in hand tool, the particular need to straighten some long edges, started having doubts about that particular plane.
Have been fiddling about with them quite a lot over the last 4 or so years and have bought/sold a few.
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":3crox4ig said:
That sounds very reasonable of you. Wait, hang on:
the real Grimsdale":3crox4ig said:plane flattening b*****x
Postby mrgrimsdale » 20 Jul 2009 10:40
Trying to do some work, got distracted. Wanted to use my Stanley 7 but all the flat plane nonsense had convinced me that it was too concave to be any good and needed a good flattening.
Put it on my planer table and applied a feeler gauge to the tiny gap near the middle. A 0.15mm blade will just go under one side, but will slide right under on the other! So it is concave and also twisted
But I recalled the Jeff Gorman test (in another thread) and applied a bit of pressure to the handle. Pinches the 0.15mm tight. Pinches the smallest 0.05mm tight. In other words under normal work load it is bendy and probably flat most of the time.
That's a relief I'll stop worrying about it.
I wouldn't have worried about it in the first place except for all the flattening nonsense which they are all so keen on.
I won't worry about all my other non-flat planes either. :lol:
cheers
Jacob
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
I'm flattered that you follow my ramblings so closely BB! :lol:bugbear":iuc3a7gn said:Jacob":iuc3a7gn said:
That sounds very reasonable of you. Wait, hang on:
the real Grimsdale":iuc3a7gn said:plane flattening b*****x
Postby mrgrimsdale » 20 Jul 2009 10:40
Trying to do some work, got distracted. Wanted to use my Stanley 7 but all the flat plane nonsense had convinced me that it was too concave to be any good and needed a good flattening.
Put it on my planer table and applied a feeler gauge to the tiny gap near the middle. A 0.15mm blade will just go under one side, but will slide right under on the other! So it is concave and also twisted
But I recalled the Jeff Gorman test (in another thread) and applied a bit of pressure to the handle. Pinches the 0.15mm tight. Pinches the smallest 0.05mm tight. In other words under normal work load it is bendy and probably flat most of the time.
That's a relief I'll stop worrying about it.
I wouldn't have worried about it in the first place except for all the flattening nonsense which they are all so keen on.
I won't worry about all my other non-flat planes either. :lol:
cheers
Jacob
I changed my mind on that one. I change my mind a lot. It's all part of the process of finding out, from a starting position of total sceptiscm!
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":3gcvlpks said:
I look forward to you reflecting this uncertainty in the language of your posts
BugBear
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
No I think I'm right by and large. There is a lot flattening done which is completely unnecessary.bugbear":aeuxaa9r said:Jacob":aeuxaa9r said:
I look forward to you reflecting this uncertainty in the language of your posts
BugBear
That was the only plane I've ever had with a real problem due to the concave base. And then only when called upon to straighten some long edges for jointing. Normally I'd use a 5 1/2 with no problem.
