Going round in circles with planer, thicknesser decisions!

[york33]

Hello all, I've been going slowly mad recently with the complete inability to make a decision on my next machinery purchase and was really hoping someone can help. Or maybe just humour me as I ramble, the wife is sick of me doing so!

I run a small furniture company. Predominantly making items from Oak, 1" and 1.5" thick, with various other thicknesses & species thrown in too.

I find myself spending too much time planing, jointing, thicknessing, etc with a traditional planer thicknesser. More often than not this is with the aim of joining into wide panels. I really need to reduce the time taken to keep pace with demand.

Now granted I could buy PAR stock, but I don't really want to head that route.

I have a good supply of rough sawn, good quality, SE Oak. A little cupping as can be expected, sometimes a little bowed, but mostly quite well behaved timber.

So, what to do. I have a few thousand, say 4max probably, to spend if needs be. So far I've looked at a larger planer thicknesser, 400mm by Rojek for instance. A 2 sided planer from Logosol. An old Wadkin 2 sided planer&2sided thicknesser combined.

An ideal machine would let me put rough stock in one end and out the other end would come a perfect board ready to glue up. It could then go through a wide belt sander and all would be good. However, that's in planet cuckoo!

In my former life I was an IT consultant, so lack experience working with a lot of these larger machines so just don't know what's best for what is a lot of money to me.

many thanks for listening (reading), I think typing that has helped in itself!
Dave

 

[JonnyD]

Sounds like what you need is a 4 sided planer moulder. Your budget of 4k will however not stretch that far. You will also need a fairly hefty 3 phase supply to run them and a big extractor for the chippings. An Auction is probably the only chance of getting one for that kind of money but with the associated risks of buying stuff at auction. You might be able to get an older weinig or wadkin machine if you search around but most dealers will be charging between 6 -10K for these types of machines.

Jon

 

[york33]

I have considered the 4 sided option, but as you say, it's a bit too pricey for me. 7k is about the entry level for a new one, but that's stretching it a bit too much for me at the moment.......

thanks
Dave

 

[head clansman]

hi Dave

I find myself spending too much time planing, jointing, thicknessing, etc with a traditional planer thicknesser. More often than not this is with the aim of joining into wide panels. I really need to reduce the time taken to keep pace with demand

By buying a new machine is it really going to save ( that much time it's still a p/t ) with machining time , sound like it volume of work that need attention ,or an extra pair of hands four grand go's a long way to pay some wages to someone needing work .

an apprentice, or maybe a retired tradesman in your area who is still active to help out maybe even on a part time basis . hc

 

[york33]

I have a little problem with taking on staff. My machinery probably doesn't meet all HSE standards. It's not dodgy by any means, but biggest problem is a lack of braking on some of it which I believe would get me in a lot of trouble?

 

[OPJ]

If you're running a business then, surely, the HSE regs. require your machinery to be up to scratch regardless of whether you employ others or not??? :shock:

Saying that, last year, I was in a workshop with six other guys where, apart from the bandsaw and spindle moulder, none of the other machines had any form of braking and would run on for much longer than ten seconds! With some of the other issues that would go unnoticed during the HSE's regular visits, I suspect money was changing hands (or something like that!) somewhere along the line... :?

Anyway, yes, you could get in a lot of trouble, even if your guarding is compliant. It's a steep cost to pay initially but, is it really worth the risk of having to pay heavier fines or even to have your machinery condemned? :?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm a hobbyist, and then one who likes hand tools where ever possible, but ti seems to me that you would have to convert an awful lot of wood before the £7000 for a 4 head machine would be realised as a good investment.

The only people I know who use these work in companies making bar furniture etc. with 20 or more woodworkers employed.

I would have thought there are a lot of decent P/Ts out there for a couple of grand that will endure industrial usage by a sole trader or one or two operatives - maybe even Axminster's high end range

 

[york33]

If you're running a business then, surely, the HSE regs. require your machinery to be up to scratch regardless of whether you employ others or not??? :shock:

Saying that, last year, I was in a workshop with six other guys where, apart from the bandsaw and spindle moulder, none of the other machines had any form of braking and would run on for much longer than ten seconds! With some of the other issues that would go unnoticed during the HSE's regular visits, I suspect money was changing hands (or something like that!) somewhere along the line... :?

Anyway, yes, you could get in a lot of trouble, even if your guarding is compliant. It's a steep cost to pay initially but, is it really worth the risk of having to pay heavier fines or even to have your machinery condemned? :?

I don't know all the ins and outs of HSE to be honest. I thought it was only interested if you employed others. I don't want any employees really, call me antisocial but I quite like working by myself! They're all well guarded and none take an absolute age to stop so who knows, they might be ok

 

[ProShop]

I don't know all the ins and outs of HSE to be honest. I thought it was only interested if you employed others. I don't want any employees really, call me antisocial but I quite like working by myself! They're all well guarded and none take an absolute age to stop so who knows, they might be ok

If your a business then the H&SE rules applies to yourself whether you employ others or not I'm afraid.

Within 10 seconds is the rule for braking. Plus the various emergency foot stops etc.

 

[OPJ]

Discs sanders (and, possibly, one or two other machines) have a thirty-five-second rule. I don't see these only as rules to be obeyed under certain circumstances; to me, they offer excellent guidance on safe wood machining. Run-down times are highly important as this is time when many people would 'switch off' and there's an increased risk of serious accident.

 

[lurker]

Technically they are sort of right about HSE.
In practice so long as you remain one man, HSE will show no interest.
No one has ever been " done" in your circumstanses

However forget any injury insurance claim cos the insurance people will laugh at you.

Now can we get back to discussing the best PT for the OP

 

[OPJ]

Going back to the original subject then...

It sounds as though you feel you're spending too much time preparing the timber ready to glue up panels. I can totally understand why you don't want to go down the PAR route but, saving up for a four-side really does sound like your best solution.

As JonnyD said, these machines demand an awesome amount of suction if you want to get even half decent performance from dust extraction. Don't know what your current extraction setup is like but you would almost certainly need to upgrade that as well... :? At college, all other blast gates have to be closed off before they can use the four-sider and we did the same thing in a workshop I used to work in. We had an old Wadkin, by the way (not just old, it was ANCIENT!) and the noise it made was almost unbearable; it would scream through your ear defenders, through your body and through the concrete floor! It didn't like timber which was slightly damp either!! :x

Do you spend much time having to flatten the panels and tops once they're glued up? You mention a 'drum' or wide belt sander but don't say whether you actually own one... I still think that could be a good purchase in your situation (if you really cannot stretch to a four-sider) as it would at least save you some time later on.

 

[york33]

I think I'll have to admit defeat on the 4sider for the forseeable. I can't afford a new one, and even the old ones give me a little (ok, a large) problem in supplying enough power. A 13kw 3phase generator is knocking on for £2000. I did wonder about the noise, vibration, etc from an old one too. Sounds like they're about as monstrous as they look!

I've got a rather large dual drum sander, by someone called Xcalibur Woodworking, 950mm wide x 300mm height capacity. I spent rather a lot on it, but I've never really got it working as I'd like. Looking back, I wish I'd spent the money on a better planer thicknesser! I've tried various grit combinations but it takes an absolute bloomin age to flat off even a pretty flat 400mm wide panel. I don't know whether I'm doing something wrong with it?!

Most of the time I end up doing the panels by hand, well a bit of planing and a random orbit sander. Most of the time they're reasonably good glue ups, with the occasional attrocious one thrown in The ones that are less than perfect do eat time though. It's been a bit of a waste of money and space so far.

 

[dicktimber]

Why don't you go out to tender.
See what they would charge, compaired to you.
If your cost is lower, you are too cheap and need to renegotiate with customer, or look at in house cost savings elsewhere.
If you are more exensive, sub contract work out and make more profit.
To make more money, get a quote from China, close your workshop, hold stock in the UK,and be a middle man taking your cut.
Move to Jersey and live as a tax exile.
The end.

Simple realy?
Just like life? :? :? :? :? :?

Mike
I

 

[Tony Spear]

I find myself spending too much time planing, jointing, thicknessing, etc with a traditional planer thicknesser. More often than not this is with the aim of joining into wide panels. I really need to reduce the time taken to keep pace with demand.

Actually, Dick's slightly tongue in cheek comment isn't entirely wide of the mark.

If your problem is the time taken in thicknessing and joining wider panels because of the size limitations of your P/T, why not just sub that part of the job out so a larger shop that does have a four sider? That way you can concentrate on the bits that you can comfortably handle in-house.