Glueing and cramping a table nice and square???

[Harrris303]

Hi everyone, I'm not sure this is really in the right forum so sorry if it isn't. I'm making my first table, and I've got the legs and rails as I want them. I've glued the two ends together, all nice and square etc. Now I've come to the point of assembling the whole frame (ie. adding the long rails to complete the table shape, minus the top itself).
So far I've been able to keep everything nice and square using the principles I've been taught for making doors and windows, because they're essentially 2-dimensional flat shapes, but now I've come to this stage I'm having trouble working out how to make sure all the elevations are straight and square.
I've realised I have to make sure the tops of the legs and rails are all square, the feet of the table are square when it's standing, and the legs are square when viewed from the side. Basically this seems like a lot to keep control of when the glue is on and the panic sets in! I'm just wondering if anyone has any tips on how to organise the process a bit better, or just anything to make my life a bit easier. (I should probably just buy a book on furniture-making!)
I hope I've slightly managed to explain myself here. Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers.

 

[Baldhead]

First, have all your cramps at hand and set to the opening that's required, plus any packing to stop bruising the wood, have a tape or some form of measure to check your diagonals, depending on the finish you may want to use tape around your mortises, damp rags to remove any excess glue, try a dry clamp up first.

Don't panic, take your time, have a large enough area to work in, im sure everything will be fine.

Oh and let's see the finished article please.

Baldhead

 

[Cheshirechappie]

It's always a good plan to have a 'dry run' - assemble and clamp everything up without glue. It means you can set the clamps and packings up, check that joints pull up tight and adjust shoulder lines of tenons if they don't, and once everything is together and clamped, check the diagonals to see if the frame is square all ways. Since there's no glue, you can do all this at a leisurely, methodical pace, and have plenty of time for slight adjustments if they're needed. It also helps to make sure joints are not too tight - adding glue later can make them swell minutely; so you want nicely fitting - tap gently together rather than whack up with big hammer - but not rattly loose. If there's no glue, at least you can pare off or shim up as needed.

Once all is to your satisfaction, remove the clamps, but keep them close at hand with their packings. Knock the frame apart again, apply the glue, re-assemble and clamp up. A final check of the diagonals to ensure all is still square, and you're done - but since you did the adjusting 'dry', it's unlikely there will be any serious problems. Then clean off any squeezed-out glue, and go and put the kettle on.

 

[Harrris303]

Thanks guys. As I say I've made a few doors and windows so it looks like all the same principles, just a few more diagonals to check! Not sure why but I always start panicking when I put the glue on, even though with PVA you've got hours to get everything sorted.
I'd love to post some pics but I haven't even started on the table top yet. I'll get the frame glued up this evening anyway and post a photo of the job so far. It's nothing special really, pretty simple angular design, no turned legs or anything. I'm thinking of getting a bit more decorative with the top though, so that could be interesting!
Thanks again, Pete.

 

[mailee]

Whether it's a fancy table or not Pete post some pics. We all love to see WIP's or finished items regardless of what it is. Looking forward to seeing the item.

 

[Mar_mite]

I'm making my first table at the moment too. It's really big, I can clamp up the short rails into the legs but it's nearly eight foot long. Not sure weather I should glue up the two ends first then concentrate on the long rails. I put rope all the way around and twisted it up with a like a garrotte. I couldn't get good enough pressure to close up all the joints. Might make them a bit slacker tomorrow. How do other people clamp large tables? Harris303, how big is your table?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thanks guys. As I say I've made a few doors and windows so it looks like all the same principles, just a few more diagonals to check! Not sure why but I always start panicking when I put the glue on, even though with PVA you've got hours to get everything sorted.
I'd love to post some pics but I haven't even started on the table top yet. I'll get the frame glued up this evening anyway and post a photo of the job so far. It's nothing special really, pretty simple angular design, no turned legs or anything. I'm thinking of getting a bit more decorative with the top though, so that could be interesting!
Thanks again, Pete.

Sorry, no. With pva you haven't very long at all - some you can take the clamps off in 10mins. especially in summer.

 

[Mar_mite]

Thanks guys. As I say I've made a few doors and windows so it looks like all the same principles, just a few more diagonals to check! Not sure why but I always start panicking when I put the glue on, even though with PVA you've got hours to get everything sorted.
I'd love to post some pics but I haven't even started on the table top yet. I'll get the frame glued up this evening anyway and post a photo of the job so far. It's nothing special really, pretty simple angular design, no turned legs or anything. I'm thinking of getting a bit more decorative with the top though, so that could be interesting!
Thanks again, Pete.

Sorry, no. With pva you haven't very long at all - some you can take the clamps off in 10mins. especially in summer.

Is there any way of giving pva a longer open time? Like adding a splash of water?

 

[SteveF]

could use these mar_mite

http://www.axminster.co.uk/faithfull-cramp-heads

 

[Mar_mite]

Like it. Thanks Stevef.

 

[RogerP]

Titebond Extend Wood Glue has a longer open time than most other wood glues.

 

[Harrris303]

Hours was a bit of an exaggeration but on my joinery course I had to pull a window apart after maybe an hour in the cramps and the glue wasn't set. And on the bottle of PVA I've got it says to leave it cramped for 24 hours! Maybe I'm missing something though...

My table's a bit smaller than eight foot! It's about 2 x 1.5ft. I thought I'd start small! I read in a book that you should start with the shorter ends then assemble the longer sides, but I've got no idea how you'd cramp something that big. Ratchet straps would've been my thought too though...

 

[Zeddedhed]

Hours was a bit of an exaggeration but on my joinery course I had to pull a window apart after maybe an hour in the cramps and the glue wasn't set. And on the bottle of PVA I've got it says to leave it cramped for 24 hours! Maybe I'm missing something though...

My table's a bit smaller than eight foot! It's about 2 x 1.5ft. I thought I'd start small! I read in a book that you should start with the shorter ends then assemble the longer sides, but I've got no idea how you'd cramp something that big. Ratchet straps would've been my thought too though...

I use two sash cramps joined with six inch nails through the pin holes to make a long'un.
Prob'ly not the best method for keeping everything square etc, but so far I've had no problems.

 

[Mr T]

Hi Pete
I would make three checks for square. First check if the legs are square vertically using a square with the stock on the top of the rail. Then check the diagonals if one direction is longer you can correct it by shifting the clamps so they are compressing in the direction of the long diagonal. Lastly is the frame twisted or in wind? If the surface you are gluing up on is perfectly level (a machine surface is good) this can be done just by checking if the bottoms of the legs legs are standing OK. Otherwise you could use winding sticks, but I find a spirit level works well.

Chris

 

[AndyT]

I've only made small tables but this method worked for me.

Don't try to do it all at once.

First cut some scrap wood the exact same length as a rail, ie the length between shoulders. Glue up two legs and a rail, as a flat frame, clamped across the joints, with the scrap piece as a spreader between the other ends of the legs. Repeat. Then assemble the two two-legged frames, again using spacers at the other ends of the legs. This time you will need two spacers as you will have to glue two opposite rails at the same time.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I damp the wood down in the summer, which helps retard the glue a little. I use Everbuild D4 (which grabs quickly) for nearly everything - you'd probably struggle to get a joint apart after 15 - 20mins, but I would still leave it for 48hrs in the winter. Hard enough to be a nuisance and hard enough to be a permanent, strong joint are different things. You tend to be careful if you've ever had a joint dry on you half open, half closed. DAMHIKT.

 

[wellywood]

Pete. I thought it might be of interest to see what I use for clamping table frames. I bought it about 5 years ago and use it often as it draws up evenly on all corners. I got some extra corner bits to do octagonal frames.
The advice to do a dry-fit before gluing is good.

 

[Harrris303]

Thanks wellywood that is a nifty looking piece of kit! I'll look into it.

 

[Mar_mite]

Just out of interest, what is the open time on cascamite like? I know is has better gap filling property's than PVA.