Gas boiler not igniting

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flanajb

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Any plumbers out there who might be able to help me diagnose the fault with our boiler?

These are the things I have identified

1. The centrifuge fan is spinning up and I can hear air coming out the flue pipe outside
2. If I hold a voltage detector on the ignition lead it is dead, but then just after the centrifuge fan spins up I detect voltage to the ignition electrode

Given the boiler is not igniting I would expect to smell a wiff of gas on the outside of the flue, but there does not seem to be any trace of gas fumes in the exhaust gases coming out of the flue?

The electrode looks like a very simple affair so I doubt it is that.

Given the lack of gas fumes from the flue I wonder if it is the gas valve unit that is faulty.

I know I am going to have to call a plumber out, but I would have liked to have got a good grasp of the failure before hand.



Thanks
 
Im not a plumber but my experience of several gas boilers over the last 40 years its always been the thermocouple at fault.
 
themackay":32pjj9yr said:
Im not a plumber but my experience of several gas boilers over the last 40 years its always been the thermocouple at fault.
+1

Of course one should not play with gas appliances unless qualified.
but a universal thermocouple (or even an original) will be around a tenner and worthwhile investment and are very simple to fit (as long as you are qualified of course)

some of the main manufacturers will have service instructions with fault find procedures at the back eg
http://www.potterton.co.uk/docs/Pottert ... ctions.pdf
page 43

remember gas is dangerous!!
 
MMUK":1a05xbvl said:
Is the spark plug actually producing a spark? If that's working correctly it'll be the T/C.
Is there a way of actually deducing this as I cannot see through the little window. Should I just whip the plug out and try and fire the boiler up. That will certainly tell me whether it is the plug.

Looking at the exploded view of the boiler I don't see a thermocouple. The manual makes no mention of one.

I agree that gas is dangerous, but only if you are a completely incompetent and decide to start connecting up gas appliances without due care and attention
 
Is the pump working ?
I know from experience that a seized pump can prevent a boiler igniting.
Combi boiler ?
 
flanajb":3kmb84f2 said:
MMUK":3kmb84f2 said:
Is the spark plug actually producing a spark? If that's working correctly it'll be the T/C.
Is there a way of actually deducing this as I cannot see through the little window. Should I just whip the plug out and try and fire the boiler up. That will certainly tell me whether it is the plug.

Looking at the exploded view of the boiler I don't see a thermocouple. The manual makes no mention of one.

I agree that gas is dangerous, but only if you are a completely incompetent and decide to start connecting up gas appliances without due care and attention

If there's no T/C it will have a bi-metallic valve on the gas line near the pilot light. These rarely fail (possible but not probable).

Try holding the gas valve in the prime position and light the pilot with a spill. Once lit, turn the valve to the run position. You may have to remove the cover to gain access to the pilot. If it stays lit, chances are it's the ignition at fault so a new plug may be in order.
 
n0legs":35lat8mj said:
Is the pump working ?
I know from experience that a seized pump can prevent a boiler igniting.
Combi boiler ?
System boiler. I just checked and the pump spins freely, so I don't suspect it's that.

I did post a question on a plumbers forum, but some of those guys have their heads so far up their own arses. I think they do it as they just want to protect their interest and like to think they are super special. Good job woodworkers are not like that.
 
MMUK":5qv56kmm said:
flanajb":5qv56kmm said:
MMUK":5qv56kmm said:
Is the spark plug actually producing a spark? If that's working correctly it'll be the T/C.
Is there a way of actually deducing this as I cannot see through the little window. Should I just whip the plug out and try and fire the boiler up. That will certainly tell me whether it is the plug.

Looking at the exploded view of the boiler I don't see a thermocouple. The manual makes no mention of one.

I agree that gas is dangerous, but only if you are a completely incompetent and decide to start connecting up gas appliances without due care and attention

If there's no T/C it will have a bi-metallic valve on the gas line near the pilot light. These rarely fail (possible but not probable).

Try holding the gas valve in the prime position and light the pilot with a spill. Once lit, turn the valve to the run position. You may have to remove the cover to gain access to the pilot. If it stays lit, chances are it's the ignition at fault so a new plug may be in order.

It's a modern system boiler and is all electronically controlled from the PCB. I have no manual gas valves or pilot
 
So there's no way of opening the gas valve to light it manually then? Bloody technology! I'm glad my boiler is over 20 years old (and more efficient than the new ones).

Oh well, for the sake of a few quid try a new spark plug.
 
Not wanting to "suck eggs" and such, does your system have a room thermostat, old school style ?
Not familiar with many boilers, been combi for years myself and mines either off, on or timed.
 
MMUK":32fzwamh said:
So there's no way of opening the gas valve to light it manually then? Bloody technology! I'm glad my boiler is over 20 years old (and more efficient than the new ones).

Oh well, for the sake of a few quid try a new spark plug.
Agreed. These things are not service friendly. But they do keep the 'experts' who maintain them in employment. So it's not all bad
 
n0legs":yqhf4kge said:
Not wanting to "suck eggs" and such, does your system have a room thermostat, old school style ?
Not familiar with many boilers, been combi for years myself and mines either off, on or timed.

I wish it was that. If I switch the thermostat up, the boiler kicks in, but does not light.

It is either

1. The igniter
2. The gas valve unit
 
Gas definitely on ??
I know it's a daft question but an ex sister in law had me messing about for ages once on an oven only to find there was no gas in the house.
 
n0legs":3sfzo0eb said:
Gas definitely on ??
I know it's a daft question but an ex sister in law had me messing about for ages once on an oven only to find there was no gas in the house.

Yep. Wife was cooking dinner tonight and gas has not been turned off at the boiler isolator
 
Well I'm sorry my friend I'm out of answers for you.
If you do decide to have a play with it may I urge caution and call out an engineer. I worked for the utilities for years and have seen a few gas explosions, best wishes.
 
There are quite a few failsafes in modern boilers, and without knowing the details it's difficult to advise (and arguably not legal, either!).

Do you have the installation/service manual for the thing? Stuff I would check:

0. Fuses: if ANY fuses have blown, anywhere in the system, there must be a reason. They are not themselves a 'fault' they're there to protect you and to protect the electrics from further damage. If you cannot find the reason and fix that, DO NOT simply replace the fuse - you can cause more damage. Get qualified help, i.e. someone who knows that make/model of boiler.

1. system water pressure: There should be a gauge. It needs to be consistently over about 1.5bar. If it won't hold pressure you have a leak somewhere, which you need to find and fix. Depending on the boiler design, it may well 'go through the motions' and not ignite.

2. flow and/or thermostats: you can check room/tank thermostats with a meter (disconnect power first, as older ones run at 240V). Undo one of the two signal/power terminals, and check across it that it switches open/closed as you turn the control. If it's too cold to do that, at least it should be closed (short-circuit across the thermostat).

3. airlocks: If it's been filled in the past few months or you had work done on the heating, there may be an airlock inside the boiler. There are usually Shraeder valves (tyre valves) and/or air traps in various places, in mine that's the highest point in the boiler and the pump. check that you get water from these and not air - if air, purge it, and it may then light and run properly. If you use a matchstick to push the pin, don't let a splinter catch in it (DAMHIK!). While you're there look for any signs of leaks in the boiler pipework. If there are any -- crusting around fittings, pooling in the case (usually evaporates leaving tidemarks), etc. the boiler has problems. Leaks may not be the cause of failure, but are signs it needs a service soon.

4. fuses: there can be several on the boiler's control board. remove power; check with meter. If gone, they're usually 20mm glass (current rating depends on design), BUT there will be a reason for the fuse blowing, which you need to find and fix. If a fuse has gone, I'd get a plumber in straightaway unless you have found the fault. Did I mention getting help at this point?

5. there may be some sort of airflow meter too: in most condensing boiler designs, unmonitored failure of the fan would be highly dangerous, so some of them check for air movement. Again you need the service manual really to find it and check it, as it may be a pulse generator of some sort (we have something similar in our dishwasher!).

6. there are over-temp thermocouples usually, too. These should be 'fail to open-circuit'. Usually found in the pipe leaving the heat exchanger. Remove one connector gently (if that's possible, or remove entire connector) and check across it for continuity.

7. the actual ignition circuit. Most modern boilers are electronic spark ignition, as it saves the gas used by a pilot light. These circuits are similar to a car ignition - low voltage high current switched into a transformer to make a spark. They have similar problems: the HT lead to the plug gets dirty and the HT tracks to the metalwork, instead of making a spark; the LT side fails for some reason; the transformer dies. You can't really test the spark in the same way as you would on a car - it's dangerous - but you can check it's all clean, and that the lead and the plug cap fit properly (check the lead going into the coil, too). In all cases do this with the power off! If there is a viewport into the combustion chamber, try to fire up the boiler in the dark and look for a spark.

8. If all the above look OK, it could well be a failure on the control board. I'd have a careful look over the board, especially check for scorching around high power resistors and/or mechanical failure of soldered joints. Modern lead-free solder is brittle and at least partly responsible for most consumer electronics failures nowadays. Any part of the board that heats/cools regularly in use is subject to mechanical stress and the joints can/do fail. Cleaning off the joint and re-making it with leaded solder will make a repair better than new. Check carefully around where any off-board wires connect into it - connectors are a common source of trouble. A magnifying glass and strong light will be helpful, as fractures in soldered joints can be hard to spot. Aged, modern, lead-free, soldered joints look 'dry' after a while, too, so that in itself isn't necessarily a failure.

All of the above voids any warranties, is probably illegal if you're not gas certified somehow, will upset some of the more bolshy plumbers, and is the kind of bl**dy obvious fault-finding that children should be taught in school (IMHO).

Oh, and if your two-year-old boiler fails just out of warranty, document everything, write to the manufacturer and basically, give 'em hell until you get your costs back.

Unless we start making their quality standards commercially unacceptable, they'll keep on selling us the sort of carp they presently do. If the old designs, that cost less in energy and materials to make, managed thirty+ years with simple maintenance, how can any of the present designs be honestly described as 'energy efficient'?

Don't get me started on the design of heating zone valves... :twisted:

E.
 
Don't get me started on lead free solder (crap) and three way valves either! :evil:

The only fault in my CH system is that I'm replacing the three way every couple of years. I really should modify it into two separate valves...
 
There will be a diaphragm operated switch near the boiler fan which senses when the fan is creating enough negative pressure to draw combustion fumes away. If this switch doesn't operate then the rest of the ignition sequence will not take place. I would check it out and eliminate it from the equation. Quick simple check is to short the two terminals on the micro-switch attached to the diaphragm then try and fire up the boiler. If the boiler fires then the fault is either the pressure switch or the fan hasn't got enough puff. To check if it's the diaphragm you can suck on it's pickup tube and listen for the switch operating. If that's ok then it will probably be the fan.

Gerry
 
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