Four Flute Router Bits

[dgray]

Hi there;

I have just started a very small company selling 4 flute router bits! We started out from the frustration of bits not lasting long enough or giving a poor finish. So we designed and manufactured some of our own!

I know advertising is not allowed on the forums. But I'd really like to get some feedback from other tradesmen on their router bit opinions. As I have found out there is quite a lot of science involved. Also would you like to know the weblink?

Thanks
David
Radian Tools

 

[jasonB]

Seems a bit expensive for a 19x50mm trimmer. I find I can get a perfectly acceptable finish using a replaceable tip cutter of similar size and when its blunt a pair of new TWO sided blades is £6.00. And for guide bushe work I use a cutter that takes a single blade again cost per new cutting edge is similar.

This is a full 50mm depth cut probably 3-5mm deep on ash endgrain, none of teh burning or cutter ripple that your website suggests, looks to me like you were using a blunt cutter to get the burn marks and moving too fast giving that rippled edge finish

Given that MFC & worktops will knock the edge off a tool in short time I think you will find it hard to get tradesmen to fork out £50 for a cutter that can't be sharpened vs. a replacable tip one. And of hardwoods the replacables give a perfectly good cut

How do you find chip removal I would have thought 4 flutes would give a smaller gullet?

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh but you asked for feedback from a trade users point of view.

J

Oh and its not exactly a unique design several others with 4 flutes on teh market already

 

[adidat]

i have to agree with jason, strikes me as quite expensive. also i think your examples are not a fair sample of typical router usage.

adidat

 

[dgray]

Hi Jason

Thanks for your reply. I know that the replaceable tip cutters have a very loyal following amongst tradesmen. They do offer great value but that is at the expense of finish. There is no way the two cutting surfaces can be aligned with the kind of accuracy of fixed ground blades (2 or more.)

We are making a much smaller margin than the established manufacturers. We are at trend/cmt quality and are using the same supplier as one of those companies use. We could have sourced it much cheaper(Far East), but at a lesser quality. I expect that other manufacturers don't offer 4 blade cutters because thier pricing model would make them extremely expensive! We are priced at roughly the price of their 2 blade bits!

Our bit is an extra £14 over the bit you mention with 2 replacements (4 blades total) I think this is very reasonable. I don't know the race of carbide they use also.

We couldn't find 4 blade cutters at the quality or price anywhere close to what we are. I know its not ground breaking but for those who are looking for best quality and for cutting hard materials it is relevant.

The chip removal is good, the shavings tend to be much finer also. The photos show common problems of router bits.

 

[jasonB]

Hi Jason

Our bit is an extra £14 over the bit you mention with 2 replacements (4 blades total) I think this is very reasonable.

It may well be reasonable for a one off purchase but when yours is blunt thats another £50 to fork out (unless you sell the undersize bearings for use after a regrind like other makers do) when mine is blunt its another £6. Given that I could get through a couple of blades or more on a single job costs will soon add up

I also make your £18 more expensive £39 vs. £57 as the blades are reversible so in effect you get 4 cutting edges for your £37. Have you tried this type of cutter as you don't seem to realise that they are double sides blades?

J

 

[dgray]

I've spoken to a lot of cabinetmakers, joiners, carpenters, kitchenfitters and some really like the replaceable tip blades and others do not. Opinion seems to be love/hate.
They do tick the value box but they are not going for absolute finish quality which is what we are after. So in that way they may be the same size but are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[tomatwark]

I wonder why Titman, Trend, CMT have not produced one of these?

Is it because if you don't get the cutting speed right and run them to fast the cutter over heats and is then not so good.

I can't be;ieve it is down to price as if the benefits were that great the extra cost which you would save in cleaning up would be worth the extra tooling cost

Tom

 

[marcros]

It seems a bit harsh to slate this product purely on cost grounds before anybody has tried it. This forum is readily referenced by Google, and if we are not careful, anybody searching for such a product is going to find these comments before there is any form of review.

Is there a demo cutter that somebody could give an independant review to- it could be returned afterwards, but at least that way, somebody will have first hand knowledge of the actual product. If the review was posted on here, a link could be put onto the Radian Tools website, thus benefitting all parties.

 

[dgray]

You would be surprised at the buying price of the bits before big companies add on their distributor margin in addition to the retailer adding their own. The companies you mention would struggle to manufacture to our specification for under £90 by my estimation. That is an even tougher sell.

Dodge volunteered to review one and write it up. I am keen to also benchmark our product against others independently

 

[tomatwark]

I would not be suprised at the mark ups involved as I have worked for distributors of some of these companies.

I will wait and see what Dodge thinks, but I am still interested what your recommended cutting speed is against the 2 flute versions.

I don't have a problem with the price, I always buy good quality tooling as it is a false economy not too.


Tom

 

[dgray]

I missed that question. Feed rate reduces as the amount of blades increases. The spindle speed is slightly less than 2 bladers, but we have used it at the same speed with good results.

 

[tomatwark]

Thanks for that

Depending on what Dodge thinks when the CMT one I am using at the moment needs replacing I will have a look at it.

Tom

 

[jasonB]

I'll cut a bit of oak with my two bladed replaceable one tomorrow and post a pic of teh cut, it will be a lot better than the one on your site. Would also be interested to see Dodge's findings

Marcros an opinioon from the trade was asked for and thats what I gave based on the finish Vs cost of the cutters I use on a weekly if not daily basis. If I were getting through two or three of these cutters a week they would have to give a substantial better cut to justify the additional costs. I have not said the cutter is no good, Just that I can get a better finish than the site suggests with a 2 flute replaceble bit and at a fraction of the running costs.

4 flute cutters can be bought from the likes of Amana so the larger companies do produce them and its therefore not a new design.

J

 

[jasonB]

I missed that question. Feed rate reduces as the amount of blades increases.

Can you expand on this as it is the opposite to usual practice with the likes of milling cutters where a 4 flute cutter can be fed at double that of a 2 flute. To keep the same feed per tooth if the number of teeth doubles then feed rate doubles.

J

 

[Dodge]

It seems a bit harsh to slate this product purely on cost grounds before anybody has tried it. This forum is readily referenced by Google, and if we are not careful, anybody searching for such a product is going to find these comments before there is any form of review.

Is there a demo cutter that somebody could give an independant review to- it could be returned afterwards, but at least that way, somebody will have first hand knowledge of the actual product. If the review was posted on here, a link could be put onto the Radian Tools website, thus benefitting all parties.

As detailed above I have today had a conversation with David at Radian tools and personally am not a fan of replaceable tip cutters for my line of work.

To this end I have arranged to have a cutter sent to me in order that I can undertake and independent evaluation of it and I will report the outcome after some use. I will report truly as I see it and will post appropriate photos etc in a day or two.

So come on guys stop slating something before it has even been tried! Most CMT/Titman cutters run at the £50 each mark, but I have got cutters from these makers that I have been using for years and they just keep going - Remember you get what you pay for!

Watch this space

Roger

 

[jasonB]

.......personally am not a fan of replaceable tip cutters for my line of work.

I think a lot will indeed depend on the type of work, its a shame more of the trade members have not offered an opinion as the type of material the cutter is used on will have a very big bearing on performance.

You mostly work in natural timbers but I also do a lot with manmade boards - chipboards, MDF, Melamine and laminate surfaces, glued up laminations, Solid surface materials, all of which are generally far harder on the cutting edges than most hardwoods.

I'd certainly be interested in how many meters of good quality MFC it could cut before the edge deteriorated both that of the tool and the cut edge of the melamine.

Jason

 

[tomatwark]

So come on guys stop slating something before it has even been tried! Most CMT/Titman cutters run at the £50 each mark, but I have got cutters from these makers that I have been using for years and they just keep going - Remember you get what you pay for!

Watch this space

Roger

Roger

That needed to be said

You are right that the price is reasonable and that you get what you pay for.

I am interested to see how it performs once it has started to lose its edge, as logic says that as more of the body of the cutter has been removed to enable the cutting of 2 extra flutes the cutter will heat up more quickly than a 2 flute cutter and become brittle.

I look forward to seeing what you think.

Tom

 

[Dodge]

Just to keep this thread updated - I received the cutter in the post today just as I was leaving my workshop - First impressions from viewing it alone is that this is a very good quality cutter - I will put it through its paces when I am back in the Workshop next week and let you know my findings

Rog

 

[dgray]

Can you expand on this as it is the opposite to usual practice with the likes of milling cutters where a 4 flute cutter can be fed at double that of a 2 flute. To keep the same feed per tooth if the number of teeth doubles then feed rate doubles.

This is because the limiting factor in wood routing is the ejection of the waste. As the bit is designed for finish and not really fast feed rates the gullets are not huge. The benefits being reliability and durability. When milling metal the feed rate is limited by other factors as the material is much harder.

 

[jasonB]

Thanks, that also answers my earlier question regarding chip clearance. So its going to take me twice as long as well :wink:

I've taken a few pics of the finish from my 2 flute replacable cutter today and will upload them later, should give something to compare Dodge's results with.

Anyone got a new sharp 2 flute brazed tip bit they can cut some oak with for comparison of all the options

J