Flooring - Suitable stain to be used before oil and wax?

[MichaelM]

I've been having a bit of a play with finishes on two different types of timber I'm considering for flooring, doors etc (Honduras Pitch Pine and Douglas Fir) and I've not been able to decide between them.

I've used Liberon Superior Danish Oil and Liberon Tung Oil on my floorboard samples, four coats of each (the first two coats of tung oil thinned for penetration) followed by a couple of coats of Liberon clear beeswax to simulate the floor wax I would apply on the finished floor. The Douglas Fir looks ok as it's dark reddishness comes out which I like, but the Honduras pitch pine is still a bit too much like the colour of varnished knotty red or white wood, which I am trying to avoid.

Is there any kind of a suitable stain that would tone it down somewhat to nearer an old reclaimed pitch pine colour, i.e. a little reddishness without being blotchy? I will be wanting to apply one of the oil finishes over it, and the Tung oil appears to be better than the Danish oil, though it is more time consuming.

I would go for the Douglas Fir, but I am as yet undecided, particularly as the pitch pine is a lot cheaper for flooring. The Douglas Fir costs less for sheeting for wainscoting however. To be honest, I don't understand why that would be so, but there it is.

On another note, is there any such thing as a coloured liquid floor wax?

Any advice would be appreciated,

Thanks, Michael.

 

[White House Workshop]

I'd get some stains and experiment with them to find the colour you're looking for first. Then apply your oil finish to the stained wood for the final effect.

You can buy pigments in all sorts of shades and mix your own colour. Do you have a local artist who could help you on colour mixing/creation? I'm lucky that I'm married to one! My favourite is to start with burnt umber (dark), warm it up with red, soften it with yellow, darken it with green, etc.

The easier way is to go to chestnut products...... or similar. You can also get a huge range of colour pigments if you're willing to order from the US (far more thaan are available in the UK, unless you go to a top quality art store).

 

[MichaelM]

Thank you for the information. Would you have any links to the US suppliers of those pigments please? I'll also have a search for the Chestnut products website. To be honest, I never thought about them, just the more everyday brands like Liberon which I got from Axminster, if you know what I mean.

I have both timbers laid out along the floor beneath a window in order to get an idea of what they will look like. My wife has been leaning towards the Honduras Pitch Pine, but was unhappy that it was too light. Since this morning, she has decided that she does indeed like the colour of it with nothing but the 4 coats of Tung Oil and clear wax over the top.

Unfortunately, she has now put the seeds of doubt in my head, and I think I would like it a little richer with an element of dark red. I have pretty much discounted the Douglas Fir as it almost looks dirty now today and the oil finish has a patchy look to it, depending on the light and the angle you are looking at it from.

I have heard that these types of wood are difficult to get an even stain on, as they have a tendency to look blotchy. Is this true? I do like the subtle finish the oil and wax gives the Honduras pine though, and the fact that it "takes" so well is a big plus.

If that's not enough, I also need a good finish for a hall with oak flooring, wainscoting and staircase. The problem I have is that I don't want it dark, and with the oils, that's exactly what I get, although it brings out the grain figuring beautifully. Any ideas on that one?

Thank's again,

Michael

 

[White House Workshop]

Both pine and fir will be difficult to get a completely even colour stain because of the resin which won't absorb the colour, although you can pre-condition the wood to make it more even. Look here:
http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/la_furniture/article/0,2041,DIY_13988_2274981,00.html

For stains you could try this one:
https://secure.hostdepot.com/01/063/site_shop/index.asp
They have a kit containing a variety of regular wood stains which you could mix and match to your heart's desire...
Another one I use a lot (for tempera colors):
http://www.charrette.com
Here's one from the UK:
http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com...ed-stain.htm?gclid=CJj4t6yDoo0CFRd8EAodJDLsyg

However, if your wife is happy with the tung oil finish I would complement her for liking it and stick with that. Remember that it will probably darken with age anyway. Don't make more work for yourself than is absolutely necessary!!!

As for the oak - have you thought about bleaching it first and then applying a honey stain?

 

[MichaelM]

Thank's for the links, I'm going to have a look through them.

"However, if your wife is happy with the tung oil finish I would complement her for liking it and stick with that. Remember that it will probably darken with age anyway. Don't make more work for yourself than is absolutely necessary!!!"

You're a very wise man, experience of the fairer sex counts for a lot! I was thinking that myself funnily enough. It may be better to stick with what is obviously a nice even finish and let time do the rest as I'm sure it will darken, rather than run the risk of ruining a very expensive floor with stain.

"As for the oak - have you thought about bleaching it first and then applying a honey stain?"

That's a new one on me, pretty much like anything to do with finishing timber! I work in the family building business and this sort of thing has always been done by the decorators etc!

What would that look like, would it result in an even finish and most importantly, how difficult would it be to do well? It is premium grade new oak, no finish whatsoever, it cost a fortune as I'm sure you will know and I don't know what to do with it. The hall is about 5 metres high so I intend fitting wainscoting around the hall, up the staircase and around the two landings to bring the ceiling down a bit if you know what I mean, hence my need for it to be light in colour.

I do appreciate you taking the time to answer my queries. This is a new field to me and as I'm lacking experience, good advice is very much gratefully received. Could you tell me one other thing I've just thought of, when using sanding sealer, is it applied before all finishes i.e. the oil or before the wax?

Thank's very much,

Michael

 

[White House Workshop]

No problems, Michael.

Sanding sealer - I have always used it before all other finishes. Not sure what it would do if used after - maybe someone else in here has done that and can provide input?

I know what you mean about being careful with the oak, especially after you have spent a lot of money on it. Bleaching it would tone down all the dark graining to a more even colour, and a honey stain would give it a warm slightly yellow glow. In a dark hall and up stairs that would be nice, imo, but you may differ. It's quite common on oak floors in the US to use a honey finish to make the wood really warm - but that's on American white oak, which is much paler than English or European oak. The only thing to do is to take some small pieces and experiment. Not too small, otherwise you won't be able to see the effect.

FYI, we put a maple floor through our halls a few years back. I used what was supposed to be clear polyurethane varnish on it and it turned orange! Had to wait a few days and hire the floor sander again to get rid of it. The retailer paid for the sander rental as they had assured me the varnish would be completely clear! I eventually found a water-based ICI varnish that hardly put any colour into the floor and we got a nice pale maple floor. A few years later and it's mellowed and darkened a bit, even though there are no windows in the hall. I also have to refinish a couple of high traffic areas, which is going to be fun matching in...

 

[MichaelM]

You see, your horror story illustrates what I'm afraid of, ...polyurethane.

Danish oil seems a little brighter on it than tung oil... Maybe there is another lighter type of oil again out there somewhere.

I wonder if I first bleached the oak, and then applied an oil...

That warm soft colour is what I'm after, though I don't think I could achieve that with oil, come to think of it. At the minute, a sample I have done with Tung Oil and wax is very brown. Polyurethane might be the only way, but there's a lot of oak and more scope for something to go wrong with it.

I'm sorry to bother you again, but you obviously know what you are talking about. Could you tell me how would I go about bleaching it and what would I use to do it?

Sorry to be a pest!

Thank's again,

Michael

 

[White House Workshop]

Michael:

I've never actually bleached any oak myself so I'd leave that advice to someone who has. My polyurethane experience was partly my own fault for not doing a test piece!

Your main problem as I see it is that oak is a naturally quite dark brown wood anyway and you're trying to alter it. It can be done, but to be honest I'd investigate whether you could return the oak and go for something different. Just a thought.

Good luck.
Brian

 

[MichaelM]

Hello again WHW, I've been kicking myself while asking the question "What was I thinking?" Oak is the best of course in terms of longevity and since an uncarpeted staircase gets a fair amount of wear in localised areas, then I surmised that it would be the best material for the job. I liked the pitch pine, but feared it would wear disproportionately, highlight every mark and constantly creak and groan. I should have took my chances with it however, but since I have my oak staircase here at a cost of £2000, it will have to stay whether I like it or not! It is really beautiful, but the colours I'm getting do nothing for me.

Maybe somebody else here has bleached largish areas of oak and either give me a couple of hints on how to do it, or tell me to avoid it altogether!!

Thank's again WHW, you've been a great help and I appreciate it very much.

All the best,

Michael.

 

[White House Workshop]

I googled 'bleaching oak' and found this:

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Bleaching_Pickling_and_Antiquing.html

Remember - ALWAYS try a test piece before your main pieces! Don't want to ruin it...

 

[MichaelM]

Thank's for the link, WHW.

I Googled something similar about it too but came up with different sites. That one you found has made my mind up to leave well enough alone!

To be honest, the colour depends on the sample timber scrap used I suppose. I first oiled a new piece of flooring I was given, and it appeared very brown which I don't like. However, my staircase has been fitted in the house now for over a year (we haven't finished the upper floor as we don't need it yet, instead concentrating on the rest of the house) and I have a couple of cuttings of the same timber. These, when oiled are completely different, beautiful and rich in colour particularly with the tung oil. It's just a question of waiting a day or so for each of the multiple coats to dry...

I do have one question about oiling floors or staircases in particular as they will get the most wear. I have seen it asked elsewhere on this forum, but there wasn't really a definitive answer.

My question is this, once oiled surfaces are oiled and then waxed, will they need to be oiled again, and if so, won't the wax be a major problem?

All the best,

Michael

 

[White House Workshop]

My floors are all varnished, as I don't like wax having skidded across a nicely waxed floor many years ago! Every finish does require refinishing at some time, though. You can buy wax remover at B&Q or Homebase - worst case use white spirit - so don't worry about it and if the finish looks good be happy.

 

[MichaelM]

Thank's for that! I was just concerned about using varnish, particularly on the stairs as it would be impossible to sand it down again in all the nooks and crannies. I have seen a mahogany staircase that has been refinished over the years and it has taken on a gloopy appearance as the varnish has collected in awkward areas. This is what I don't want.

My problem, and it's a big one, is that I'm a perfectionist. A small scratch in my new floor would soon take on the dimensions of the grand canyon, and I would never ever see the floor, only the scratch! You see, it's not just the look of an oiled finish I like. The ease with which a small repair can be effected with the application of some more oil appeals to me very much. It is just the removal of the wax that worries me.

My wife has now settled on oiled and waxed pitch pine floors etc and the same finish on the oak stairs etc. I just hope the wax is easy to remove when the time comes, as if it's too difficult she will want to me to help...

Only kidding! :twisted:

 

[johnnyb]

just my tuppence worth,
i would refinish the oak floor in a water based quality floor lacquer. avoid like the plague bleach, stain, wax and anything that may complicate the job. granwax make a good selection. if its for domestic use a one pack will be fine. apply with a extra large stanley paint pad. sand with 240 paper in a ros between coats . remove dust with a damp rag.
ps bleach would be a nightmare, stain would be messy may not take evenly and you may sand through the colour, wax is lethally slippy.