Excalibur Scrollsaws
- Thread starter Alexam
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Malcolm.
I bet you are pleased, it’s been a long wait and if you are like me, I take a long time to make up my mind on things, but when I do, I hate waiting.
But now it is all go, and from the quality of your band saw boxes I predict that great things will emerge from the scroll saw. :wink:
Take care, and all power to the scroll saw.
Chris.
I bet you are pleased, it’s been a long wait and if you are like me, I take a long time to make up my mind on things, but when I do, I hate waiting.
But now it is all go, and from the quality of your band saw boxes I predict that great things will emerge from the scroll saw. :wink:
Take care, and all power to the scroll saw.
Chris.
AES
Established Member
Congratulations on your new saw Alexam (Malcolm). A very good review and excellent piccies.
Apart from the NVR switch, about the only difference I can see between yours and mine is that extra silver "bent bar" you are touching in your photo Review 6. I have the big (ish) cast hold down foot but the "forward blade protector" (shall we call it?) is not present on mine. Also I don't have the "bent bar" lower protector that you show in your Review 9.
As per a previous post, I cant see any point in having the latter (fingers can't go anywhere near that lower blade area when cutting), but just as you say, the forward blade protector could be useful for beginners. As I also remarked previously, although a bit big sometimes, I do find that hold down foot useful now and then, especially when cutting thick stock.
Re DE, yours looks just like mine, and although I guess it depends on the amount of suck your vac has, personally I've never had any big bits of waste getting stuck there.
I think you've covered everything very well but perhaps you could check your manual re those blade grub screws, one of which you've shown in pic "Grub Screw"?
My Manual makes quite a big point about making sure that the inner end of the grub screw (that contacts the blade) should be set so that it is exactly flush with the LH edge of the blade slot, not behind, not proud of the slot. It's a matter of screwing it in and out until it's dead flush with the blade slot.
Although the Manual didn't say so, I found that sliding a feeler gauge blade of the same thickness as the slot then allowed me to gently screw the grub screw in until it was just touching the feeler blade - i.e. exactly flush with the surface of the slot. This makes sure that when tightening the thumb screw onto the blade you don't risk damaging the blade or the screw thread in the blade retaining block, thus making sure that the blade is firmly held without needing Herculean pressure on the thumb screw - DAMHIKT!
Apart from that comment, which is NOT intended as any sort of criticism, you've covered it very well indeed and it looks just like the "real Excalibur" apart from the fact that by paying a lower price you've also got a 3 year Warranty
- as opposed to my 2 years -
Best of luck with it, looking forward to seeing the fruits of your labours.
AES
P.S. I suppose as the scrolling expert was away, you have no info on a foot switch?
Apart from the NVR switch, about the only difference I can see between yours and mine is that extra silver "bent bar" you are touching in your photo Review 6. I have the big (ish) cast hold down foot but the "forward blade protector" (shall we call it?) is not present on mine. Also I don't have the "bent bar" lower protector that you show in your Review 9.
As per a previous post, I cant see any point in having the latter (fingers can't go anywhere near that lower blade area when cutting), but just as you say, the forward blade protector could be useful for beginners. As I also remarked previously, although a bit big sometimes, I do find that hold down foot useful now and then, especially when cutting thick stock.
Re DE, yours looks just like mine, and although I guess it depends on the amount of suck your vac has, personally I've never had any big bits of waste getting stuck there.
I think you've covered everything very well but perhaps you could check your manual re those blade grub screws, one of which you've shown in pic "Grub Screw"?
My Manual makes quite a big point about making sure that the inner end of the grub screw (that contacts the blade) should be set so that it is exactly flush with the LH edge of the blade slot, not behind, not proud of the slot. It's a matter of screwing it in and out until it's dead flush with the blade slot.
Although the Manual didn't say so, I found that sliding a feeler gauge blade of the same thickness as the slot then allowed me to gently screw the grub screw in until it was just touching the feeler blade - i.e. exactly flush with the surface of the slot. This makes sure that when tightening the thumb screw onto the blade you don't risk damaging the blade or the screw thread in the blade retaining block, thus making sure that the blade is firmly held without needing Herculean pressure on the thumb screw - DAMHIKT!
Apart from that comment, which is NOT intended as any sort of criticism, you've covered it very well indeed and it looks just like the "real Excalibur" apart from the fact that by paying a lower price you've also got a 3 year Warranty
- as opposed to my 2 years - Best of luck with it, looking forward to seeing the fruits of your labours.
AES
P.S. I suppose as the scrolling expert was away, you have no info on a foot switch?
Valld
Established Member
Great review Malcolm really thankfull for that. I think my scales are leaning to Ex16 for now. It will cost me about half of the hegner 2S but 6 kg havier. By the way i've checked all shipping methods from UK and Germany to Botswana and the cheapest is about 250 euro, so i will defiinitely go with my suitcase plan, anything else will be extremly expensive, considering i have to pay another 15-20% customs tax on top of the shipping, if I use a courier.
Alexam
Bandsaw Boxmaker
:lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D> =D>
Lons
Established Member
Valld":123udosp said:
The Hegner 2S isn't a direct comparison with the EX-16 but rather the EX-21 which definitely isn't half the price. The Hegner 2S variable speed is £719 and the Axi EX-21 is £550 so a difference of £169 which is still substantial of course.
I've been mulling these over for weeks and finally came to a decision this morning. I concluded I don't really need large capacity as I have a bandsaw for that and scroll will be used for smaller projects anyway so the AXI model would be the EX-16 at £500.
Based on that and the fact I prefer cast iron to sheet steel and the EX motor looks as if it might be brush type rather than induction I've ordered a Hegner multicut 1 v/s and they threw in a quick clamp foc. At £488 including carriage it's slightly cheaper than the Axi model anyway. I get it Monday
Lons
Established Member
Nice review Malcom =D>
Alexam
Bandsaw Boxmaker
CORRECTION - the forward and back setting of the blade requires the motor to be turned. I have added this to the review. Sorry for the mistake in my rush.
Malcolm
Malcolm
scrimper
Established Member
Lons":1ocxde3f said:The Hegner 2S isn't a direct comparison with the EX-16 but rather the EX-21 which definitely isn't half the price. The Hegner 2S variable speed is £719 and the Axi EX-21 is £550 so a difference of £169 which is still substantial of course.
I've been mulling these over for weeks and finally came to a decision this morning. I concluded I don't really need large capacity as I have a bandsaw for that and scroll will be used for smaller projects anyway so the AXI model would be the EX-16 at £500.
Based on that and the fact I prefer cast iron to sheet steel and the EX motor looks as if it might be brush type rather than induction I've ordered a Hegner multicut 1 v/s and they threw in a quick clamp foc. At £488 including carriage it's slightly cheaper than the Axi model anyway. I get it Monday
To be honest I think you have made the right choice, the one thing that puts me off is the use of a universal or carbon brush motor and the AXI models are equipped with them, of course they use them because they are cheaper and much easier to equip with variable speed control using cheap and simple electronics. The Hegners are fitted with a top quality induction motor which is practically 'bullet proof' and will almost certainly never give any problems. Another reason is that any machine equipped with a brush type motor is going to be noisier more harsh and will be more prone to vibration.
A good example, I have two quality scroll saws one is a British made diamond which is built like a 'brick chicken house' very heavy and quality made however it is equipped with a brush motor similar to the AXI range and their is no way you could consider using it such is the vibration unless it is securely bolted down to a substantial base, in fact the company that made it advised me to bolt it to a concrete floor!
A few years later a bought a Hegner and what a revelation it was, it was perfectly possible to use it especially at the slower speeds just resting on the worktop, I could not believe how quiet and smooth running the Hegner was and it is the one thing I have never regretted buying. Hegners are very expensive and back in 1999 when I bought it (£436) I was concerned about spending so much but one soon forgets the cost however if you buy a saw that does not meet up to your expectations every time you use it you will be annoyed and wish you had bought differently.
Many here will think I am being 'picky' about not liking universal/brush motors but every machine that I have bought with such a motor has always been harsh and noisy and I don't enjoy using them, whereas those fitted with induction motors are almost always quiet and smooth running and a pleasure to use. I have machines in my workshop fitted with induction motors that I have owned for over 40 years and never ever had any problems with the motors.
I spent most of my life working with electronics and motors and experienced 1000's of brush type motors burning out but cannot recall any issues of induction motor failures they just go on forever!
Sorry for the 'lecture' but I just hate brush motors!
:lol:
AES
Established Member
If it's any consolation to you scrimper, I don't think you're being "picky" about brushed v brushless motors at all.
There's no doubt that when I compared Hegner and Excalibur, one reason why the Hegner felt "a better machine overall" to me is because of that very quiet brushless motor on the Hegner.
Having said that however, there's no doubt that brushed motors CAN be made to run pretty smoothly and quietly, and in fact the vast majority of motors in all our tools today are the brushed "universal" type - some with (much) more, some with less vibration - until you get to "professional" machines that is.
My Excalibur is a case in point, as in reality you just can't hear the motor itself above the noise that the blade cutting through the wood makes and it LOOKS as if the Axi versions have the same motor (60 V DC).
But there's no doubt that my Excalibur vibrates much less when bolted to the bench, and if I was to do away with the hard rubber castors that allow the bench to move (which I will not do) the vibration would be even less - probably down there with the Hegner.
Any decently-designed tool will allow for the inherent vibration of a brushed motor by ensuring that all the attached components are designed to dissipate the forces generated by vibration. I think my Excalibur is a case in point.
But in the end "yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice", and personally I just felt my saw was better value for money than the the Hegner. Assuming the Axi versions are "carbon copies" of the "real Excalibur" (which they appear to be) then that price differential is even better against the Hegner.
AES
There's no doubt that when I compared Hegner and Excalibur, one reason why the Hegner felt "a better machine overall" to me is because of that very quiet brushless motor on the Hegner.
Having said that however, there's no doubt that brushed motors CAN be made to run pretty smoothly and quietly, and in fact the vast majority of motors in all our tools today are the brushed "universal" type - some with (much) more, some with less vibration - until you get to "professional" machines that is.
My Excalibur is a case in point, as in reality you just can't hear the motor itself above the noise that the blade cutting through the wood makes and it LOOKS as if the Axi versions have the same motor (60 V DC).
But there's no doubt that my Excalibur vibrates much less when bolted to the bench, and if I was to do away with the hard rubber castors that allow the bench to move (which I will not do) the vibration would be even less - probably down there with the Hegner.
Any decently-designed tool will allow for the inherent vibration of a brushed motor by ensuring that all the attached components are designed to dissipate the forces generated by vibration. I think my Excalibur is a case in point.
But in the end "yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice", and personally I just felt my saw was better value for money than the the Hegner. Assuming the Axi versions are "carbon copies" of the "real Excalibur" (which they appear to be) then that price differential is even better against the Hegner.
AES
Valld
Established Member
I don't even think for a second to argue which motor is better. Induction motors by design are far more reliable, quiet and smooth running. But I don't think the vibration in a scroll saw comes from the motor itself. Not having experience with other scroll saws, I just want to share my observations on my cheap Ryobi. Just a month after purchase and with no more than 30 hours working time I decided to disassemble the saw completely and check the pivot bearings and internals in general. If not assembled properly this cheap machines can degrade very quickly and become scrap on your garage shelf. I'm not going to get into details and make a review of this saw, just want to say that when I disconnect the link between the motor and the lower arm I started the motor just to see if there is any difference. And there wasn't, same bad vibration on certain speed settings, mostly unusable in the middle. Then I removed the heavy balancer connecting the motor axsis to the link. Started the motor again and man, what a difference! No vibrations at all, whisper quiet, from lower to top speed. By the way the motor looks exactly like the EX motors. The vibration is caused by badly designed balancer wheel. Not to discuss the gap in the sleeves where the saw arms are pivoting and the thin cheap aluminum housing where they are mounted, this just adds to the picture and makes the saw even worst. I personally think that Hegner saws (which have exactly the same construction as my Ryobi) are just designed to perfection. Add to this using high quality materials (including the motor) and you get a the ultimate device. Simple and reliable. What I don't like in Excaliburs is the excessive amount of moving parts, bearings, arms and pivots to achieve the same result - a blade moving up and down with certain speed. It doesn't do it better than the Hegner saws, but they have some neat side features for people who need them - the drive mechanism tilts instead of the table, the upper arm can be lifted and quick top feeding is possible because of the easily accessible bottom quick blade clamp. For now I'm only interested in 3d puzzles intarsia and compound cutting and if I don't see a need for this extra features that the EX has, I will probably buy a Hegner. 2s most probably.
Alexam
Bandsaw Boxmaker
Tune Up Update...............
Spent this afternoon making sure that the blade was completly verticle from the side and the front. Part of this involved making sure that the arm was parallel with the table and a tweak of the large knob on the back of the arm soon did this. The adjustment of the virtical blade from the front involved moving that tiny grub screw, mentioned earlier IN just a tad to move it slightly right and line it up.
Next was the vertical from the side, which involved turning the motor by gently loostening the three screws holding it in just enough for the motor to be turned.
Moving it anti-clockwise in my case (yours may be different) just about a full screw position. If you look closely, you can see the pencil mark I put around the original position,(in line with the bolt- click on the image) , which I would suggest is a good idea for anyone before moving the motor. With the blade is moving at it's slowest setting, gently turn the motor whilst observing the side vertical stroke of the blade. As it comes into the correct position, the motor is even quieter. Then lock it off, and it should remain correctly positioned, but worth checking occassionally.
I did not feel happy with loading to blade into the lower clamp, as it can be pushed down too low, leaving not enough blade to reach position on the top clamp. Looking at the entrance of the clamp, it apeared to allow the blade to move down as far as you allowed it, so I decided to have a closer look by removing the clamp. Two bolts hold it in place
and by carefully removing these, the clamp can be freed, but be careful that the two small bushes do not drop out of the arms.
In fact the blade slot does have a stop position, just below the tightening peg and the grub screw, but if the blade is not delivered vertically, this can be missed and the blade then travels as low as it wishes. I decided to put in a second stop to prevent this and a small wooden splinter with super-glue was enough.
with that in place, it should make it easier to load the blade, for me at least, so I then fitted the clamp back in place.
With the blade now completly virtical, I decided to test this with a block of wood, cutting a small grove and thenmoving that cut behind the blade to make sure it fitted the same slot, which it did.
I then thought I would try a 2" block of pine, just to see how it coped. Low and behold, the hold-down clamp will not allow that size of work as it gets in the way at its maximum height, so it needed removing. WOW... that's a manufacturers fault.
Anyway, heres the cut
So that's it for today.
Malcolm
Spent this afternoon making sure that the blade was completly verticle from the side and the front. Part of this involved making sure that the arm was parallel with the table and a tweak of the large knob on the back of the arm soon did this. The adjustment of the virtical blade from the front involved moving that tiny grub screw, mentioned earlier IN just a tad to move it slightly right and line it up.
Next was the vertical from the side, which involved turning the motor by gently loostening the three screws holding it in just enough for the motor to be turned.
Moving it anti-clockwise in my case (yours may be different) just about a full screw position. If you look closely, you can see the pencil mark I put around the original position,(in line with the bolt- click on the image) , which I would suggest is a good idea for anyone before moving the motor. With the blade is moving at it's slowest setting, gently turn the motor whilst observing the side vertical stroke of the blade. As it comes into the correct position, the motor is even quieter. Then lock it off, and it should remain correctly positioned, but worth checking occassionally.
I did not feel happy with loading to blade into the lower clamp, as it can be pushed down too low, leaving not enough blade to reach position on the top clamp. Looking at the entrance of the clamp, it apeared to allow the blade to move down as far as you allowed it, so I decided to have a closer look by removing the clamp. Two bolts hold it in place
and by carefully removing these, the clamp can be freed, but be careful that the two small bushes do not drop out of the arms.
In fact the blade slot does have a stop position, just below the tightening peg and the grub screw, but if the blade is not delivered vertically, this can be missed and the blade then travels as low as it wishes. I decided to put in a second stop to prevent this and a small wooden splinter with super-glue was enough.
with that in place, it should make it easier to load the blade, for me at least, so I then fitted the clamp back in place.
With the blade now completly virtical, I decided to test this with a block of wood, cutting a small grove and thenmoving that cut behind the blade to make sure it fitted the same slot, which it did.
I then thought I would try a 2" block of pine, just to see how it coped. Low and behold, the hold-down clamp will not allow that size of work as it gets in the way at its maximum height, so it needed removing. WOW... that's a manufacturers fault.
Anyway, heres the cut
So that's it for today.
Malcolm
Attachments
Lons
Established Member
Excellent reviews Malcolm
Shame we didn't live closer, would be valuable information to put the Hegner 1v and Ex-16 against each other for direct comparison.
Shame we didn't live closer, would be valuable information to put the Hegner 1v and Ex-16 against each other for direct comparison.
scrimper
Established Member
Valld":2a2zmmr7 said:
IMHO if you have any metal machine that is equipped with a harsh noisy motor vibration will be transmitted to other parts of the machine, understandably due to the design of a scroll saw they are prone to vibration but as many of will attest it is possible to make a scroll saw that does not vibrate excessively and the use of an induction motor plays quite an important part in this.
scrimper
Established Member
Claymore":1yh0b8cs said:
I have not tried the AWFS18 myself but looking at it's design and features it looks practically the same as a Hegner to me but at a much reduced cost, had this been available when I bought my Hegner I would probably have bought the AWFS18 myself.
Valld
Established Member
scrimper":vluk6eow said:
Sure scrimper, your statement is correct in general, it just doesn't apply for scroll saws, even the cheapest ones does not have harsh noisy motors. Induction motors are superior and last forever, but they do not reduce vibration. Just take any heavily vibrating scroll saw, disconnect the arm and remove the balancer\excentic wheel and you will see no vibrations and quiet motor. Except in cases where the motor is damaged.
Valld
Established Member
Malcolm, I think this is the best review I've seen so far on EX series scroll saws, Excalibur and Axi, thank you for the time spend to share with us!
