Everyone Vote in Scotland Independance

[deema]

I love Scotland, and try to visit as often as I can. The topic on postage got me thinking. I would like Scotland to remain part of the UK, but as I reside in England (and have no Scitish blood that I'm aware of) I cannot vote. So today I decided to vote with my pocket.

My theory is that if I don't want Scotland to vote yes, economic pressure is more likely to succeed than three chaps heading north. Therefore, for my support of keeping the Union I have decided to stop buying anything Scotish, connected with Scotland and close any bank accounts I may have with banks based in Scotland until the No vote wins.
I'm sure that if everyone followed along the impact would be significant and make those determined to leave the union think again about how successful they would be Independant.

I belong to no political party, or have any other political ambition. I just want to keep us all as one country. I would therefore urge you, if you feel the same, to take similar action.

It may not make any difference, but is as likely to have the same impact as single vote in an election. One vote is meaningless, thousands make a difference.

 

[RogerS]

Haggis has now been vetoed in this household.

But I'm struggling with whisky.

 

[Silverbirch]

"Therefore, for my support of keeping the Union I have decided to stop buying anything Scotish, connected with Scotland and close any bank accounts I may have with banks based in Scotland until the No vote wins.

Mmm......... do you think that would work for me?
By the way, Scottish blood wouldn`t help you at all. On the other hand, if you were a sixteen year old Englishman/Bulgarian/Singaporean, living up here, you`d be in luck!

ian

 

[theartfulbodger]

Whichever way the vote goes, one thing seems certain - a rift has been created :|

 

[Walney Col]

I thought it was mars bars in batter that created the original rift.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I love Scotland, and try to visit as often as I can. The topic on postage got me thinking. I would like Scotland to remain part of the UK, but as I reside in England (and have no Scitish blood that I'm aware of) I cannot vote. So today I decided to vote with my pocket.

My theory is that if I don't want Scotland to vote yes, economic pressure is more likely to succeed than three chaps heading north. Therefore, for my support of keeping the Union I have decided to stop buying anything Scotish, connected with Scotland and close any bank accounts I may have with banks based in Scotland until the No vote wins.
I'm sure that if everyone followed along the impact would be significant and make those determined to leave the union think again about how successful they would be Independant.

I belong to no political party, or have any other political ambition. I just want to keep us all as one country. I would therefore urge you, if you feel the same, to take similar action.

It may not make any difference, but is as likely to have the same impact as single vote in an election. One vote is meaningless, thousands make a difference.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's as simple as that. My mother's pension is administered from Scotland, so what happens to that if they vote 'yes'? Will she have to visit the border once a week and be paid in baubies? Will baubies be legal tender in Cheshire?

And that's just one small example of the knots that will have to be untied, financial and otherwise.

Being an English resident, I don't have a vote, which I rather resent because it's my Union too, as it is for the Welsh and Northern Irish. I hope it's a 'no' vote in the end; after 300 years it's just starting to shake down nicely, and throwing it out now would be a great shame. Especially as Scotland has always had quite a lot of independence anyway - it's own legal system, it's own education system, religious independence, it's own system of local government, and it's own cultures. The disconnect with Westminster politicians is not a uniquely Scottish complaint either - talk to anybody in England, Wales or NI.

Still, it's Scotland's choice, and we'll all have to live the consequences of whatever choice they make, good or bad, for evermore.

 

[Silverbirch]

Unfortunately, the polls are showing Yes and No being neck and neck, so whichever side wins, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people. Not so much a case of Scotland deciding, as "just over half of Scotland" deciding and the rest having to put up with it.
But that's democracy.

Ian

 

[deema]

I run a company, and as a consequence see the problem with democracy. My employees don't always understand the rationale behind my decisions as I'm unable to give them all the facts for various reasons. Equally, if the MD were elected, they would not vote for me, but for someone who would promise them a shorter working week, more holiday, a large pay rise, free this and that etc etc, the company would survive for about two minutes, but still they would vote them in. Very few understand a P&L, and fewer still understand cash flow. I would not blame their decision, in fact I understand it. But like Lemmings rushing over the cliff edge I would morn their loss.

 

[Kalimna]

I have tried to avoid most internet discussions on this because I find it difficult to control my responses to those whom I feel are basing their decisions on an emotionally charged 'We hate Westminster' notion without rationally analysing the available evidence. Would Scotland work outside of the union? Most assuredly. Will it be the nirvana that Salmond et al suggest it will be? Most assuredly not. On so many fronts, from the local to the international stage, Scotland (and the remainder of the UK) will be considerably poorer than it is now.
I truly fear for the future if Scotland are to go it alone, and I would strongly consider moving south if I was in a position to.
I also have the feeling that, give the importance of such a decision, having a simply >50% vote = winner is the wrong thing to do. I think it should be higher, e.g. at least 75% of the population eligible to vote (and not just those who turn up to vote) need to vote Yes for a change.
However, it is a democracy we live in and should be thankful for. A democracy doesn't mean you get the result you vote for, it means the result most people vote for, and this is a point I have tried to make to those who go down the 'We didn't vote for Westminster' route. Everyone in the UK has to live with the result, so I hope it is the rational, sensible choice.

Cheers,
Adam

(Just noticed your post, Deema, as I typed this up - I think you have hit the nail well and truly on the head, and in a much more succinct way than I could!)

 

[Silverbirch]

I absolutely agree. The notion that, if we vote for independence, the people of Scotland will thereafter always get the government we vote for, is such nonsense. Some of us will, some of us won`t, just as at present.

I also don`t like the way Scottish politicians of a certain persuasion assert that "the people of Scotland" want this or that, as if we are all one homogenous group, and separate from the rest of the U.K.
We`re not and I hope we never will be.
Ian

 

[themackay]

This isn't about Scotland v England. It's about democracy. It's definitely anti-Westminster, and for sure it's not only Scotland that's being let down by the Union. Friends in Newcastle, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham all feel that the UK only works for rich people in the south east. We don't live in a democracy right now; we live in an elected dictatorship! 90% of the cabinet are millionnaires, and their priorities after their second house paid for by the taxpayer, are helping out their pals from Eton who run big business. Elected by around 30% of the electorate, but given over half the seats, due to selective gerrymandering and a bad electoral system. The UK and Belarus are the only countries left in Europe using First Past The Post! Then we have the House of the Lords; an unelected plutocracy of old men sleeping on expenses! Right now Scotland has 1 Conservative MP out of 59; yet we are ruled by a Conservative led coalition. That's not some people not getting what they want; that's the overwhelmingly majority. It's the absolute definition of democratic deficit. In an Independent Scotland, with a fairer system, most people would get what they want. This isn't about the politicians or parties; it's about us, the people who live and work in Scotland. We're fed up of subsidising London. We're a rich country yet we have foodbanks, people choosing between heating and eating and massive child poverty (worse than 1in 5). We have the worst pensions in Europe, we work the longest hours and for the lowest pay. There is an awakening right now in Scotland. We are realising that we have an opportunity to redefine politics and representation and fundamentally change the system for the better. Not only that, but we could be the inspiration for progressive change in the rest of the UK too! I wont' stop buying English goods. The corrupt and biased mainstream media, newspapers and TV particularly, especially the BBC, who fear losing £300mn in funding from Scotland, is such that I can understand those not living in Scotland being out of touch with the actual debate. There's been a dramatic increase in engagement, which Yes or No only bodes well for more accountability in the future.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I don't have a vote as I live in Somerset but do strongly support the union both an intuitive sense and believe that both countries would be weaker apart - economically, politically and world level influence. I can sympathise to some extent with the independence campaign as even only 200 miles away Westminster can seem remote.

However I have come to he conclusion that the YES vote is an emotional decision, but NO is the rational choice.

10 or 20 years hence in a "steady state" it is not possible to confidently project what the outcome will be - jobs, employment, incomes, public services etc etc. We are starting from a very similar place and future projections depend entirely on small differences in assumptions made.

However the transition will be fraught. Despite confident assurances, there are many large issues to be resolved - currency (Euro, Sterling, other), EU membership, businesses relocation south, pensions, borders, national debt. A new Scottish government will also need to set up all the machinery of an independent state - eg: tax, vehicle registration, bank regulation, embassies, foreign office, etc etc. Some may go well but some will not - and the outcome is not wholly in their hands.

The real question for the voters is whether to trade a likely 3-5 years of aggro for the possibly illusory benefit of independence.

 

[RogerS]

This isn't about Scotland v England. It's about democracy. It's definitely anti-Westminster, and for sure it's not only Scotland that's being let down by the Union. Friends in Newcastle, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham all feel that the UK only works for rich people in the south east. We don't live in a democracy right now; we live in an elected dictatorship! 90% of the cabinet are millionnaires, and their priorities after their second house paid for by the taxpayer, are helping out their pals from Eton who run big business. Elected by around 30% of the electorate, but given over half the seats, due to selective gerrymandering and a bad electoral system. The UK and Belarus are the only countries left in Europe using First Past The Post! Then we have the House of the Lords; an unelected plutocracy of old men sleeping on expenses! Right now Scotland has 1 Conservative MP out of 59; yet we are ruled by a Conservative led coalition. That's not some people not getting what they want; that's the overwhelmingly majority. It's the absolute definition of democratic deficit. In an Independent Scotland, with a fairer system, most people would get what they want. This isn't about the politicians or parties; it's about us, the people who live and work in Scotland. We're fed up of subsidising London. We're a rich country yet we have foodbanks, people choosing between heating and eating and massive child poverty (worse than 1in 5). We have the worst pensions in Europe, we work the longest hours and for the lowest pay. There is an awakening right now in Scotland. We are realising that we have an opportunity to redefine politics and representation and fundamentally change the system for the better. Not only that, but we could be the inspiration for progressive change in the rest of the UK too! I wont' stop buying English goods. The corrupt and biased mainstream media, newspapers and TV particularly, especially the BBC, who fear losing £300mn in funding from Scotland, is such that I can understand those not living in Scotland being out of touch with the actual debate. There's been a dramatic increase in engagement, which Yes or No only bodes well for more accountability in the future.

..until this one, we've had some very sensible and reasoned arguments so far in this thread and, of course, you are entitled to your own viewpoint but phrases such as we live in an elected dictatorship! are simply ridiculous. You are deluded.

 

[themackay]

If we lived in a true democracy we would have proportional representation and MP,s would be free to vote for the views of their constituents not told how they will vote to suit the agenda of the leadership.

 

[Kalimna]

Proportional representation isn't ideal either. Neither option is any good if a large proportion of the population are too bored/lazy/apathetic to vote, however. We do live in a true democracy, in that anyone of legal age and residence is eligible to vote, whatever system is chosen.
Not all parliamentary votes are closed either, as I am sure you know.

Adam

 

[Mark-numbers]

All salmond has created is a divide within his own country - scots versus scots.

 

[finneyb]

If we lived in a true democracy we would have proportional representation and MP,s would be free to vote for the views of their constituents not told how they will vote to suit the agenda of the leadership.

But most MPs haven't the ability to get elected without the party machine - so they have to toe the line

Brian

 

[finneyb]

I don't think Salmond has the balls to take Scotland Independent.
If its a Yes vote you will see some devious footwork (is the referendum binding on the Scottish Govt - I doubt it) - it's a political game that he is enjoying.

Then we have Cameron, Clegg & Miliband travelling to Scotland - giving him oxygen to fan his flame.
They should be taking the line if you want to leave that's your choice - settle your account as you check-out because we don't give credit.

BUT, of course the likes of Gordon Brown, Darling and others with constituencies north of the Border would not have a Westminster seat if Scotland went independent - surprising how the threat of redundancy motivates.

Just my 2p worth

Brian

 

[duncanh]

It was interesting driving up to Skye from Newcastle last week. Around the border and south of Edinburgh the signs we were seeing for yes or no in gardens and windows were split about 50/50. When we got into the Highlands there were definitely more yes than no. When we were north of Fort William and all around Skye we didn't see a single sign for No. Back in Edinburgh on the way home we saw some nos but it was still mostly yes.
It's hard to know if this is a good indication of how things will go as I think most of the population is city based and we only really saw one, but my guess would be for a yes vote. It's clear that the country is very divided.

 

[RogerS]

.... It's clear that the country is very divided.

That, sadly, is the legacy that Salmon and his vanity project will inflict on the population of Scotland regardless of whichever way the vote goes. The same thing happened in Canada when Quebec was voting....it was very divisive. As you say, it will be the same in Scotland.