Edge jointing without a cambered blade.
- Thread starter Philly
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Alf
Established Member
My oilstones are flat...
Alf: how flat, and how do you know? Seriously, if the answer is simply 'enough to do what I want', then I rest my case... If the answer is 'to 1 micron measured with a flatometric laser after an hour's dibbling with the flatomaker dobbler', then well done you, but my time in the shop is too short to do that...
Alf
Established Member
Well straight edges and such don't show any light, if that's any use. 'Tis not much work to keep them in trim with my DMT every so often - not an option for craftsmen of yore of course. Freehand honing spreading the wear over the whole surface helps too.
Cheers, Alf
Cheers, Alf
bugbear
Established Member
Alf":k13ef42g said:
Heh. I don't normally do this, but the coincidence is too much to ignore.
Here's a post I just made in a different thread on woodcentral.
I think modern woodworkers have become convinced that a sharpening surface must be (at least) as wide as the blade being sharpened.
Historically, this has not been possible. Older natural stones (in the 1850-1900 period) were typically 1 - 1 1/2 inches wide, and yet at this period typical large bench planes had blades of 2 1/2" (and in some cases even larger).
In practice this does not present a problem, especially when honing freehand. A simple sideways movement, done simultaneusly with the end-to-end stroke will suffice. Alternatively one can (in effect) sharpen sub-sections of the blade separately. When the blade is wider than the stone, one receieves an interesting benefit; the stone cannot become hollow in width. Given the amount of effort expended on keeping some sharpening media flat, this may be of interest.
Here's a quote from Walter Rose, written in the 30's but referring to the late 1800's:
http://nika.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswi ... 01#message
BugBear
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Paul, how does that help if, as is quite common with busy workshops, just one or two stones are used to sharpen everything from 1.5 mm wide chisels to plane irons 45 or 55 mm wide?
Wouldn't there be a tendency, with the best will and technique in the world, for the stones to develop a hollow of some sort, perhaps in both the width and the length? It always happened to my oilstones anyway, and I'm pretty handy at off-the-cuff freehand sharpening-- I've never had a choice on that front because it's always been a case of 'just get the job done, and never mind the niceties.'
Certainly in my career I can't think that I've ever really set aside stones that are used specifically for particular tools.
My plane irons get sharpened on the same stones as my chisels. There just isn't enough room in either a workshop based toolbox or in the jumble known as an on-site tool kit for a selection of stones or sharpening systems. One size tends to fit all I've found.
However, it's always been the case that, in a hole, and if you're stuck for a means of sharpening in a hurry, perhaps because you've stupidly left your stone and 3-in-1 oil in the workshop, that a bit of sandpaper on a flat surface will do---- or even stroking the tool up and down a smooth concrete step can sometimes get you by for now. Slainte.
Wouldn't there be a tendency, with the best will and technique in the world, for the stones to develop a hollow of some sort, perhaps in both the width and the length? It always happened to my oilstones anyway, and I'm pretty handy at off-the-cuff freehand sharpening-- I've never had a choice on that front because it's always been a case of 'just get the job done, and never mind the niceties.'
Certainly in my career I can't think that I've ever really set aside stones that are used specifically for particular tools.
My plane irons get sharpened on the same stones as my chisels. There just isn't enough room in either a workshop based toolbox or in the jumble known as an on-site tool kit for a selection of stones or sharpening systems. One size tends to fit all I've found.
However, it's always been the case that, in a hole, and if you're stuck for a means of sharpening in a hurry, perhaps because you've stupidly left your stone and 3-in-1 oil in the workshop, that a bit of sandpaper on a flat surface will do---- or even stroking the tool up and down a smooth concrete step can sometimes get you by for now. Slainte.
Philly
Established Member
Thanks to everyone for their informed answers-this has turned out to be a really interesting thread. And no "dado" style flaming either! :lol:
I re-read the chapters in Planecraft and noticed that it does not mention how to remove wind from an edge. A fleeting mention of removing wind from a face side but not a whisper on edges. Why is that??? Do most folk just keep removing material until the edges magically straighten out or am I the only one to encounter edges in wind?
As an example, I was gluing up two pieces for a small table top. The boards were just over 6 inches wide and I needed a 12 inch wide top. The edges were in wind and after jointing the edges I was pretty darn close to 12 inches wide. To remove the wind I used Mr C's method and got away with taking only 3 or 4 swipes from each edge. To me, this method is great when you are limited by the amount of material you have. It is a bit "finicky" compared with running it over the power jointer a few times to straighten things out but allows you to true things up with minimal waste.
Cheers
Philly
I re-read the chapters in Planecraft and noticed that it does not mention how to remove wind from an edge. A fleeting mention of removing wind from a face side but not a whisper on edges. Why is that??? Do most folk just keep removing material until the edges magically straighten out or am I the only one to encounter edges in wind?
As an example, I was gluing up two pieces for a small table top. The boards were just over 6 inches wide and I needed a 12 inch wide top. The edges were in wind and after jointing the edges I was pretty darn close to 12 inches wide. To remove the wind I used Mr C's method and got away with taking only 3 or 4 swipes from each edge. To me, this method is great when you are limited by the amount of material you have. It is a bit "finicky" compared with running it over the power jointer a few times to straighten things out but allows you to true things up with minimal waste.
Cheers
Philly
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Hi Philly,
Funny, I've been doing the same - re-reading Planecraft, re-reading DC's book and watching his DVD. I've also been trying to analyse what I do - probably because at the moment I am planing up lots of oak, from sawn, by hand and I am going to have to join it to make a 3ft diameter table. It's going to be thick so for the first time I won't be able to use my favoured "plane the two boards together" technique :shock:
Thinking about what I normally do, I use a similar technique to DC. That is, putting pencil marks on the board to indicate where the high and low spots are and, if necessary moving the plane about across the thickness of the board. Also using his stop shaving technique where the board is high in the centre in relation to the ends. It's just that I've never given it so much thought before and I've been doing it that way for as long as I can remember.
Having watched his DVD I must say that I can now see the benefit of the curved blade. You can do it all with a straight blade but probably not with the precision and predictability of the curved blade approach. And you probably end up removing far more wood with the straight blade than you would with a curved blade. In the example you quoted where you have very little wood to play with, the curved blade technique (or the Phil Edward's block plane technique :wink: ) clearly has advantages in that you can achieve the required result with the removal of less material.
Anyway, I still have several miles of oak to plane, so by the time I finish I may have reached a definitive conclusion about all this :-k But then again.........
Paul
Funny, I've been doing the same - re-reading Planecraft, re-reading DC's book and watching his DVD. I've also been trying to analyse what I do - probably because at the moment I am planing up lots of oak, from sawn, by hand and I am going to have to join it to make a 3ft diameter table. It's going to be thick so for the first time I won't be able to use my favoured "plane the two boards together" technique :shock:
Thinking about what I normally do, I use a similar technique to DC. That is, putting pencil marks on the board to indicate where the high and low spots are and, if necessary moving the plane about across the thickness of the board. Also using his stop shaving technique where the board is high in the centre in relation to the ends. It's just that I've never given it so much thought before and I've been doing it that way for as long as I can remember.
Having watched his DVD I must say that I can now see the benefit of the curved blade. You can do it all with a straight blade but probably not with the precision and predictability of the curved blade approach. And you probably end up removing far more wood with the straight blade than you would with a curved blade. In the example you quoted where you have very little wood to play with, the curved blade technique (or the Phil Edward's block plane technique :wink: ) clearly has advantages in that you can achieve the required result with the removal of less material.
Anyway, I still have several miles of oak to plane, so by the time I finish I may have reached a definitive conclusion about all this :-k But then again.........
Paul
MikeW
Established Member
:lol: :lol: :lol:Paul Chapman":12bwpnn4 said:
Good luck <g>.
I think most woodworkers change their style of work over time to what works consistently for them. But, they may well change again given more time.
Didn't mean to pick on you, Paul. I just love the statement!
Take care, Mike
Philly
Established Member
Paul
Thanks-hopefully whilst you work you'll be a lot more aware of what you're doing and come up with some more insights. Sorry if I got you thinking too much, though :roll: :lol:
Mike
As you say, as time goes by the "enemies" method starts to make a little sense and we may even grudgingly come to accept it as our favorite. Until you try it all you never know what suits you best.
Getting awfully insightful here-must of been that second glass of wine.... :lol:
Cheers
Philly
Thanks-hopefully whilst you work you'll be a lot more aware of what you're doing and come up with some more insights. Sorry if I got you thinking too much, though :roll: :lol:
Mike
As you say, as time goes by the "enemies" method starts to make a little sense and we may even grudgingly come to accept it as our favorite. Until you try it all you never know what suits you best.
Getting awfully insightful here-must of been that second glass of wine.... :lol:
Cheers
Philly
Wiley Horne
Established Member
Paul's method of noting the 'high line' along the edge and planing it is an excellent one.
An alternative which might be considered, and which I like, is to read the shaving. Set the board up in planing position, and start planing from the inside out--if you can take a shaving in the middle of the board, keep taking shavings until you can't take another, and keep working outwards towards the ends of the board. Meantime, as you are doing this, you are reading the shaving--Is it full width? Is it coming off the left side here and the right side there, or vice versa? What is happening is that you are bringing the board to true, both in the length and plumb to the sides, by working from the inside out, whilst watching your shavings get wider til they span the full width end to end.
The final pass is end to end, with the blade just barely touching at the middle of the board, but not taking a shaving there. That's enough spring in our So. Cal. climate. Others may need different amounts of spring.
After what I hope is the final pass, take a small bevel edge square and go end to end to verify plumb. Or else use the very sensitive method (of DC I think) and put the stock of a small square on top of the board, the blade down the side, and check at a few places. What I like about this method is that you get into a rhythm and there is very little checking as you go to be done. The shaving tells you what you need to know. I use this method with a fairly straight blade.
Just something for your consideration. There are many roads to the goal.
Wiley
An alternative which might be considered, and which I like, is to read the shaving. Set the board up in planing position, and start planing from the inside out--if you can take a shaving in the middle of the board, keep taking shavings until you can't take another, and keep working outwards towards the ends of the board. Meantime, as you are doing this, you are reading the shaving--Is it full width? Is it coming off the left side here and the right side there, or vice versa? What is happening is that you are bringing the board to true, both in the length and plumb to the sides, by working from the inside out, whilst watching your shavings get wider til they span the full width end to end.
The final pass is end to end, with the blade just barely touching at the middle of the board, but not taking a shaving there. That's enough spring in our So. Cal. climate. Others may need different amounts of spring.
After what I hope is the final pass, take a small bevel edge square and go end to end to verify plumb. Or else use the very sensitive method (of DC I think) and put the stock of a small square on top of the board, the blade down the side, and check at a few places. What I like about this method is that you get into a rhythm and there is very little checking as you go to be done. The shaving tells you what you need to know. I use this method with a fairly straight blade.
Just something for your consideration. There are many roads to the goal.
Wiley
Philly Wrote:-
OK.. maybe it's cos I'm dead from the neck up or it's too late for thinkin...... but honestly.... I soooooooo don't get this... why go so far out of your way to make such a simple thing to execute so utterly complicated..???
simple answer..?? Shoot the damn thing and get onnnnnnn with it... curved blade, straight blade, match plane...< shudderin..>.... life's too short man.... geeze...
I built a real simple adjustable shooting board that takes all the fartin around out of the equasion.. reduces the equasion to just one line... how wide do you want the finished stick..????? One jig gives me 2 square edges that are parallel to each other and planed to finished width... thought free zone once the jig's set up and clamped down.. Straight blade (remember the KISS concept??) in the #9 and have at it... rocket science it aint...!![/b]
OK.. maybe it's cos I'm dead from the neck up or it's too late for thinkin...... but honestly.... I soooooooo don't get this... why go so far out of your way to make such a simple thing to execute so utterly complicated..???
simple answer..?? Shoot the damn thing and get onnnnnnn with it... curved blade, straight blade, match plane...< shudderin..>.... life's too short man.... geeze...
I built a real simple adjustable shooting board that takes all the fartin around out of the equasion.. reduces the equasion to just one line... how wide do you want the finished stick..????? One jig gives me 2 square edges that are parallel to each other and planed to finished width... thought free zone once the jig's set up and clamped down.. Straight blade (remember the KISS concept??) in the #9 and have at it... rocket science it aint...!![/b]
Paul Kierstead
Established Member
Midnight":1ge2t1p5 said:
How long is the shooting board? How do you deal with it when it is too long?
the board's 1220mm.... I've managed to deal with sock over double that length, using the same board to shot pieces as short as 150mm.. wide enough scope for ya...?
mad width of board it'll handle is a smidge over 300mm..
mad width of board it'll handle is a smidge over 300mm..
Philly
Established Member
Thanks Midnight (we seem to have a LOT of Mikes around here now! :lol: )
Another angle-a shooting board. Any chance of a picture of your set-up or a description?
Cheers
Philly
Another angle-a shooting board. Any chance of a picture of your set-up or a description?
Cheers
Philly
GEPPETTO
Established Member
Hi Guys,
I know, it could seem a little "strange" but, because my little experience or because I must translate and only after to know what the statement says, I think I have understood few or nothing .
I have read somewhere that edge jointing can be done with a little hollow in the centre of the edge because the stuff remains so more stable. But I
thought that it had to be done with a straight edge blade. What do matter a cambered blade? :roll:
Could anyone to explain me "that method" like I would be a child of 4 years old?
Many cheers
Gabriele
I know, it could seem a little "strange" but, because my little experience or because I must translate and only after to know what the statement says, I think I have understood few or nothing
.I have read somewhere that edge jointing can be done with a little hollow in the centre of the edge because the stuff remains so more stable. But I
thought that it had to be done with a straight edge blade. What do matter a cambered blade? :roll:
Could anyone to explain me "that method" like I would be a child of 4 years old?
Many cheers
Gabriele
bugbear
Established Member
GEPPETTO":2si5bdu3 said:
This is the best I know of, on the web:
http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoin ... eindex.htm
The point is that a cambered blade allows the taking of a tapered shaving.
If the taper is in the correct direction, each pass can adjust the angle of the edge.
Since the taper can be rather small, and is anchored exactly by the plane's sole on the workpiece, the process can be rather accurate and controllable.
If the edge is VERY far from square this process is too slow, and the plane should simply be held as vertical as you can, until the error is smaller. then the fine control process can be used.
BugBear
Paul Kierstead
Established Member
Midnight":2t0qcyp5 said:
It is certainly an interesting idea. My first though was that you may have to clamp down larger pieces, but I expect it is no more trouble then clamping boards held edge up (I do envy those who can do it without clamping).
So, the question becomes: Why don't books/etc. recommend a very long shooting board? What is the downside?
only one I've found is thatt he thing's so damn simple that it's never gonna be able to justify writing a book to blow wind up its whazzoo.. every silver lining has a cloud I guess...
as for it's description.. nothing to it really.. built from an offcut of 12mm ply I got tired of stubbing toes against..
built like a set of 3 steps... bottom one is the plain that the plane slides on, 2nd one is the depth stop, 3rd one's adjustable to give the width of finished stick.. I lock the sticks down with toggle clamps, fence adjustment is nothing more than a pair of Tee headed bolts and big hand nuts...
your mileage may vary..
