Dovetail Marking Lines

[Luke Kelly]

I recently made a bookcase out of some reclaimed teak. I dovetailed it as a way to learn how to cut them and, after quite a few attempts, it went reasonably. The lines though are really quite visible. Is this normal and/or desirable? I couldn't sand them out. Was I just far to aggressive with the marking gauge?

(The whole at the bottom left is a result of my not thinking through the use of the plough plane when making a groove for the panel at the back. Lesson learnt. Possibly.)

 

[AndyT]

Hi Luke,

There was quite a lengthy discussion on this recently - https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31708 - general consensus was that marking lines should not be left visible like that.

Andy

 

[OPJ]

Hand-sanding would take you hours to remove those marks! :? Even with some kind of power tool, it would take some time. Quickest and easiest way would be to sharpen a smoothing plane. :wink:

 

[Luke Kelly]

Brilliant, cheers for that.

I clearly failed at the search task!

 

[Handworkfan]

For future reference: use a cutting gauge with a blade - not a pin - I like the wheel-type gauges and Axminster do some reasonably-priced ones. If you set the gauge to a hair less than the thickness of the timber you'll end up with the long grain surface slightly proud of the ends and be able to remove the marks while flushing down the joint with a plane. I use fairly light marks on the faces - deep enough to locate a chisel in for the final cuts, but no more - and deeper ones on the edges of the tail board as this helps get a clean shoulder.
Hope this helps
Incidentally, I'm still waiting for confirmation from the editor, but there just may be an article about dovetailing, concentrating particularly on practice technique and the learning process, in a future issue of F&C.

 

[MikeG.]

Am I a heretic?

I don't use a marking gauge, blade or wheel, for marking out dovetails. I use a pencil.....a fine, hard propelling pencil, so that I get a thin line.

You quite obviously have to mark on the visible (outside) of the joint, and if it takes a bit of extra care to line up the chisel.........so what? At least you don't then have to attack the finished joint with a plane or sander to clean your marks off........a rubber does the job nicely.

Mike

 

[woodbloke]

Am I a heretic?

...it takes a bit of extra care to line up the chisel.........

Mike

Probably
Using a knife to mark lines means that the chisel can be dropped exactly onto the line so it rules out the 'hit & miss' element. I use a knife to lightly mark out the joint and then go over the bits where the chisel will rest more heavily later on, so there's no error in placing the chisel.
Using a pencil would be OK if you make boxes from scaffolding boards though :lol: >>>>>>>>outa here! - Rob

 

[Handworkfan]

Am I a heretic?

I don't use a marking gauge, blade or wheel, for marking out dovetails. I use a pencil.....a fine, hard propelling pencil, so that I get a thin line.

You quite obviously have to mark on the visible (outside) of the joint, and if it takes a bit of extra care to line up the chisel.........so what? At least you don't then have to attack the finished joint with a plane or sander to clean your marks off........a rubber does the job nicely.

Mike

There's always a degree of cleaning up to do at the end of a job anyway, so taking out the cut-lines just happens as part of that. Like Rob, I like the facility of using feel rather than just sight to get the chisel lined up - a minute error that doesn't show to the eye at that stage can become a hugely visible gap!
Even the thinnest of pencil lines is likely to be a lot thicker than a knife or gauge line - so I think I'd find it difficult to be really precise in that way.

Michael

 

[MikeG.]

Well, each to their own.

There is no right and wrong with this............

A dry fit practice piece in ash, using a Japanese saw (on loan from Workshop Heaven) for the first time. The sawing was pretty poor.........but the chiselling didn't suffer from lack of a scoreline.

Mike

 

[Handworkfan]

Impressive - as you say, each to their own - and it's the end product that counts.
Michael

 

[woodbloke]

I agree that everyone does things differently, but it's one of the basic fundamentals for precision woodwork that the chisel needs to sit in a knife line or gauge line. Using a cut line of some sort simply takes out a lot of the element of risk in placing the chisel...if it sits in the cut, it's in the right place - Rob

 

[newt]

I know we have discussed this before, but I see dear old JK leaves his dovetail gauging lines in some of his pieces

 

[Sgian Dubh]

As far as custom and practice in the trade my understanding is that leaving the scribed line at the root of the tails or pins developed in response to payment of piecework rates during the 18th and 19th centuries. I have studied antique furniture in some depth because for more than three decades now part of my work has been the repair and restoration of old and antique furniture; my observations are that nearly 100% of dovetails executed by those old journeymen included a scored line left visible in carcass and drawer box dovetails.

Certainly scoring the line with a cutting gauge makes it far easier to register the chisel for chopping out the waste. I generally score the line deeply so that it is virtually impossible after assembly of the joint to remove all evidence of it without removing a lot of wood and significantly altering the box dimension, ie making it smaller by 3 or 4 mm which really messes up the fitting of drawers into openings for instance. In my own work therefore I rarely attempt to remove the line and I've never considered it inferior practice to leave it. I also can't recall anyone declaring any of my gallery or exhibition work being sub-standard because of visible scored dovetail shoulder lines.

On the other hand I don't believe dovetails without a visible scored line are aesthetically better or inferior. They are just visually different, but more fiddly and time consuming to make so the customer receives a higher bill to compensate for the time.

Every once in a while I do execute dovetails where a scribed shoulder line does not show. I'll place a dovetail with this appearance right next to dovetails where a scribed line is evident if necessary, and for an example see near the bottom of the page at this link: http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Ca ... h-cab.html

Lastly, when I demonstrate execution of the five minute through dovetail in boards up to about 100- 120 mm wide I know I couldn't do it without that deeply scored shoulder line. It's a place I can see to stop the saw cut and it's somewhere to place the pointy end of the chisel in the one-whack waste removal technique I use to create the sockets. Slainte.

 

[newt]

Slainte, excellent response on the subject, I feel somewhat vindicated

 

[Handworkfan]

Not all dovetails of coruse are for drawers - and I don't think I'd want a visible knife-line along the corner of a box or cabinet. but like others I wouldn't want to try and cut precise dovetails without the cut line in which to register the chisel.
Each to their own - fair enough - but given that one has to clean up anyway, it's not that many more shavings to take out the score line - unless it's very deep of course - so I don't really see the point of struggling to get by without the benefit of it.
My practice - and I'm not a pro maker so I don't pretend to have achieved excellence (I'm still working on it) - is to shoot the ends of the boards to the finished length and then set the gauge a tad under the thickness of the timber so that the long grain stands fractionally proud - then I can clean up, flush down adn remove the score marks leaving the finished piece the size I designed it to be.

 

[TheTiddles]

I think marking lines on anything are like construction lines on engineering drawings, they are usefull for manufacture but can be removed. People think they add to the authenticity but to the educated they are just a sloppy mess... That should rattle a cage or two...

Aidan

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I set the gauge as you described, a shaving or so less than the thickness of the parts, so that the ends of the tails and pins sit below the surface of the assembled box. This way the box can be hammered or cramped together with a simple softening block of wood that puts the pressure where it needs to be, ie, on the long grain face of the tails or pins.

If the end grain of the tails and pins protrude at glue up time you need custom made cramping blocks, or you have to hammer between the protruding tails to get them to seat properly.

Off the top of my head I can't really think of any fellow British professional furnituremakers that exhibit their work as I do who routinely remove the gauge line from their dovetailed drawer boxes, although more seem to do so where the dovetails are on show on cabinet and chest exteriors. The north Americans have a slightly different cultural take on this for they seem to generally prefer dovetails without lines, but they also like thick and inelegant drawer sides lacking the refinement of slips, so I don't generally take their taste and preferences on the subject seriously. Slainte.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

People think they add to the authenticity but to the educated they are just a sloppy mess... That should rattle a cage or two...
Aidan

Ha, ha. Not really because you are an amateur woodworker and a professional engineer, whereas I am a professional furniture designer maker and I'm not trying to sell you one of my pieces of furniture.

If you were a customer you could have hand cut dovetails any way you want, cutting gauge lines or not. I'd simply charge you more for dovetails with no lines and you'd just have to be happy to pay. If you weren't happy with the idea of paying, you'd get the lines, or you'd have the option of, for exampe, machine cut dovetails which are cheaper than any form of handcut dovetail; that would be the end of the options available to you. You'd pick one option and pay the cost-- simple. Slainte.

 

[MikeG.]

Touchy subject, isn't it?

Well, I've been a professional furniture maker too, and I don't leave marking lines on any of my joints. That doesn't make me any more right or wrong than anyone else............it's just something else we will have to disagree agreeably on.

Mike

 

[Joints]

Firstly get yourself a good 4H or 5H pencil, get it as sharp as you can so that your marking is precise.

Then when cutting you pencil line you know exactly where to cut, your pencil line should not be much thicker than your knife line!

Another thing is when you are using a cutting gauge only cut the parts where the wood is going to be removed, ie not the entire width of the board!