Door stiles - quartersawn necessarY?

[Mike.S]

Just ordering timber (Redwood - PSA/PAR) for a french door project and wondering if it's merely desirable to obtain q/s wood for the main stiles (2m long) or prudent/essential?

My local supplier (Champions) describes it as:

"Slow grown Redwood from Northern Scandinavia, tight grain to aid stability

Smooth finish and low knot content to reduce preparation time

Kiln dried from original boards to reduce distortion."

So, as it's dried and as long as it's straight, will that be good enough?

 

[dejaa]

HI
Of course QS timber is virtually always best for any project where a degree of precision in the manufacture is demanded. Given the cross section likely for a French door jamb (what 7" x 5") and the gap needed to be engineered into the parts to enable the door section to be opened/closed personally I wouldn't insist on QS.

What I would recommend is using a hardwood like Iroko, I've made many conservatory door and door/window combinations and wouldn't use anything other, except maybe Oak. It has a much better resistance to rot, bugs etc. the only downside is the dust given off in manufacture.

Hope this helps
David

 

[RobinBHM]

I think I would be a bit nervous buying prepared, unsorted redwood from a timber merchant, especially for door stiles unless I was collecting and able to select. Champions timber is generally quite good, but it has got to be pretty straight and flat for door stiles. I would reject any stiles if they have any wind at all and a maximum bow of about 3mm over the 2.0 metre length.

For door stiles, I would either buy greensplit material (sawn to joinery section green and then kilned), or use laminated softwood. Unfortunately you won't be able to but these from a local timber merchant, you would need to buy from somebody like Lathams or Brooks Bros. Even with this material, softwood swells and shrinks quite a bit in service, I find that the rails grow and end up higher than the stiles. I mostly make doors in iroko or accoya, although of course this is a significantly more expensive option.

In any case, I wouldnt use a solid section for the bottom rail - It is likely to cup, I would glue up 2 pieces.

 

[Mike.S]

Thanks David

Reason for choosing Redwood is that nearly all my existing windows/doors are made from that, including the french door frame and adjoining windows; it's cheaper; I'm planning to move house next year and I suspect any buyer will replace with upvc (which I detest)! I had considered a hardwood like Meranti but, overall, Redwood seems to make more sense.

I should have given dimensions #-o Jambs/stiles are only 4" x 2" (2 doors making overall width of 42"). Top rail 110mm, bottom 165mm.

 

[Mike.S]

Robin

All noted, thank you, and stored away for future reference but for the reasons above, in reply to David's post, I'll stick to Redwood.

I will be visiting Champions, so can select myself. I have had some 'banana' shaped timber in the past, so will follow your guidance on bow/twist.

Interested by your final comment about the bottom rail, as I always thought it best to use one piece (to avoid another join that water could enter). How would you join the two pieces - just glue butt joints; t&g (I have no domino/biscuiter) or...? Also would you flip the orientation so that any cupping cancels out?

 

[Mar_mite]

I use champions quite a lot, their softwood is better than any other timber merchant I have used. But I wouldn't make doors from it. It may be straight, but not square edge. The new Malden branch is a bit manic, if I were you I'd go into the claygate branch and speak to either Alpesh or Lee. Really helpful guys. Ask for joinery grade redwood. That is a grade higher than what's stocked in the yard, and will be straight and square. Explain what you are doing. They can supply any timber you require. (At a cost) Douglas fir would be my choice.

 

[Mike.S]

Mar_mite

That's very useful local knowledge. Thanks. I'm in Old Malden so would normally use the New Malden yard (agreed, it's mad at times) but will try Claygate first.

In addition to other posters' recommendations a joiner I spoke to did suggest Douglas Fir or Meranti...hhmmm, thought I'd made a decision #-o

 

[Mar_mite]

Well, doug fir smells nice. If that helps.

 

[RobinBHM]

Very useful comments from marmite -if you are to deal with a known, helpful contact, that improves your chances of getting good timber a lot. I live close to Champions in Edenbridge and have bought a lot from them over the years.

Regarding the bottom rail, Ive seen severely cupped rails that have been made in one piece of softwood. If you want to make it one piece, then try and select a board that is at least partly quarter sawn. If making from 2 pieces then again select as close to quarter sawn as poss and joint with opposite orientation.

Ive seen doors made by large joinerys works that make bottom rails in 2 pieces and chamfer the edges where they join so it creates a V when assembled. Thats done to stop differential expansion from making the joint telegraph through the finish.

Your bottom rail is quite narrow at 165mm, so maybe go for one piece. One thing to watch out for is if you are working from bought prepared stock is that may already be cupped, which will prevent the joint from being flush.

Putting a v in the joints, where rails and stiles meet will minimise the chance of movement cracking the paint film. Also sanding or routing a 3mm radius on all edges will keep an even paint film thickness. Of course sealing the stile ends and fully painting the bottom of the door is vital, along with the ends of beads. Done well, a softwood door will good for many years.

 

[Mike.S]

Robin

All good info thank you.

I've read quite a bit about the 3mm radius and v groove - possibly in the Trada 'wood windows' publication (or Teknos system/method). It makes sense. Whilst my doors suffered primarily due to dried out putty coming away from the glass - allowing water to wash down into it and rotting the bottom rail and adjacent stiles (whilst leaving the paint film intact - unless you look closely ). Not helped by the burglars jemmying the stiles further up (they held, but damaged) :evil:

I think I'll make up my mind on the jointing of the bottom rail once I learn what timber is available.. Champions softwood thickness (i.e. 50mm nom, 44mm finished) matches my existing so minimised work but I have a P/T so will see what's available.

I've been here for 20+ years so the doors (probably installed 30+ years ago, according to a neighbour) have done pretty well and, bar my recent neglect of them would have gone on I'm sure.

 

[Mar_mite]

What about putting a bevel on the outside instead of using putty, then silicone the glass in and bead it from the inside. Might look better too. How good are you at puttying?

I wouldn't worry about gluing two pieces for the bottom rail. 165 is on the small side. Normally the top rail is the same width as the stiles.

 

[Jacob]

Best to buy sawn "unsorted" redwood. In a good yard you wouldn't expect to select it - this is bad practice - you don't know that someone earlier hasn't taken all the best bits so it's no longer "unsorted". But if it's too bendy you could expect a discount or a replacement.
Yes modern paint stays intact but allows water in behind it. Linseed oil paint is much better (see other thread). Either shellac or linseed oil to the rebates before glazing will prolong life. Putty lasts forever if it is painted and maintained. Don't use glazing sprigs except temporarily to hold glass in whilst putty goes off (not usually necessary).

 

[No skills]

How badly are the doors rotted? could they be repaired as you are moving on?

 

[blackrodd]

Timber, 4"x 2", 6"x 1", 2"x 1", etc, from a builders merchant is not joinery quality, it's a 5th or lower grade, and has just been pushed through a 6 cutter moulding machine, which just squashes the lumber flat and straight and planes it.
After, Although now square, the timber will assume it's original "shape", sometimes cupped, bent, twisted, etc.
Choosing with care, will get mostly good results from the merchants stocks.
I am lucky that my local merchant has stocks horizontal, in racks so easy to turn over and pick out you're stiles, etc.
Joinery quality, is a terrible price, mostly end stamped with a crown or at least a + And will tend to be stable and a better quality in grain and knot content, but it's a natural product and you can always get caught out.
Iroko, or oak, as mentioned, would be better, possibly lasting longer, but also pricy.
Suggest you get on down to Jewsons, or whatever, choose carefully and store the timber inside for 3 or 4 weeks to "acclimatise" to new situation, moisture content, etc and if you are fortunate get morticing!
HTH Regards Rodders

 

[Mike.S]

Mar-mite
Probably will put bevelled beading to outside - see this thread. I'm pretty good at puttying but the thought of doing 16 panes isn't attractive .

Jacob

Either shellac or linseed oil to the rebates before glazing will prolong life. Putty lasts forever if it is painted and maintained. Don't use glazing sprigs except temporarily to hold glass in whilst putty goes off (not usually necessary).

Noted. I always Shellac rebates to seal before puttying. Key part of your quote is "if it is painted and maintained". As confessed to earlier I failed here. A casual glance didn't reveal the rot until too late - it was quietly rotting away without disturbing the paint film at the surface. This was because the water ingress was between the glass and putty fillet - sinking straight down into the rail and adjoining. I always paint 1-2mm over the putty onto the glass to seal but left repainting too long.

NoSkills
Too rotten to save, except as a bodge job and I wouldn't want to leave that for a new owner.

Rodders
Noted, thank you. Ties in with earlier advice. Fortunately, as I'm doing it myself the timber cost, whilst important, won't be the main deciding factor. It's trying to get the right quality - whether its Redwood, Douglas Pine or one of the hardwoods mentioned.

I'll see what the wood yards can offer and store it for a while - which will give me time to shop for those 'essential' tools I've hankered after